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make it to America then come see us we
are going out on the road for sys Kay
live again and we are going to start the
whole thing off in Chicago on July 24th
01:02
that's right and if you can't make it to
America maybe make it to Canada because
we're gonna be in Toronto on the next
night and fourth Music Hall then in
august we're gonna do a couple of dates
at the Wilbur in Boston on October 29th
in Portland Maine's lovely State Theatre
on August 30th yep and then we're going
to be heading down to Florida we're
gonna be at Plaza Live on October 9th
and then the next night we're gonna be
in New Orleans at the Civic Theatre
that's right and then we're gonna round
it out in Brooklyn October 23 24 and 25
at the Bell house yep so come see us you
01:33
can get tickets and info at sy eske
live.com welcome to step you should know
a production of by heart radios how
stuff works
[Music]
hey and welcome to the podcast I'm josh
Clark there's Charles to beat Chuck
Bryant there's Jerry
Jerome Rowland over there sitting on
Frank the chair is not very happy about
that but still this is stuff we should
know I thought Jerry's entrance today
was unique oh yeah yeah man when they
02:06
when Matt and Tyler brought her and
rolled up in a carpet her out on the
studio floor
yes and she said fire me we said Jerry
we don't have that kind of power but she
just it was amazing was almost like
playing the whole thing in Reverse she
rolled herself back up in the carpet in
one swift motion that's right and if you
were a Cleo patch right then you had got
a little chuckle out of that joke if not
you're probably thinking that we're on
02:37
drugs or something yeah I guess you
could probably think both but neither is
true what is true is that you're about
to be confused for the next 45 to 55
minutes that's a great setup man we're
gonna confuse everybody yeah boy this is
good
dense and there are a lot a lot a lot of
names with numbers that follow and not
remember it's and not even regular
numbers numbers that are actually
letters yeah Roman style you know so
03:09
here we go
this is gonna be good Chuck oh by the
way if you live in Chicago or Toronto or
Boston or Portland Maine or Orlando
Florida or New Orleans or Brooklyn New
York okay you should go to sys K
live.com yeah and check out our tour
dates we're going to those cities and
you can buy tickets at sys K live.com
and get information about things like is
it a 21 and up show I don't think any of
them are what time our doors
probably seven but you better check that
03:40
kind of stuff you can go find that info
by visiting SOS K live and then
following the hyperlinks out to other
web sites on the Internet that's right
if you've never seen us live come on out
it's a lot of fun and if you have just
come on back get a second helping of us
yep
second heaping helping of our
hospitality now on to Cleopatra
mmm good call by the way good call for
for saying all that great so Cleopatra
she's one of those historical figures
04:11
that everybody knows about but if you
stop and ask yourself what do you know
about her and realize you know next to
nothing about her you know she was
amazingly beautiful she looked like Liz
Taylor she she loved Julius Caesar and
maybe Mark Anthony - and wait a minute
how did she love both where what's going
on here you just realized you get
confused pretty quickly
was she a feminist icon was she actually
04:40
just kind of a wily woman who used
sexuality to get what she wants who
knows the problem is this she's one of
those historical figures that we know
very little about because historians
know very little about her like she was
not extensively document as famous as
she is she was not extensively
documented by her own people
the Egyptians yeah which is a little
strange because she was beloved by the
Egyptians from what we can tell yeah and
what we can tell but most of the
05:12
information we have is very greco-roman
mm-hmm especially this Plutarch chump
well Plutarch actually he was the first
to to show any sympathy whatsoever yeah
the guys who came a little before him
they were they were just all out meanies
because the the Romans did not like
Cleopatra in general they found her at
the very least problematic in that she
kept luring away some of their favorite
05:44
sons and then usually to the detriment
of Rome or Mumbai likely the idea if she
was a great ruler as she seems to have
been at least above average if not like
one of the better better rulers around
if there was this woman who was you know
kind of in the public eye and basically
in ancient old-timey Roman news all the
time and she was a female who was really
good at ruling that was a threat to
Rome's established patriarchy
06:16
that wasn't supposed to be able to
happen and so Rome came up with all of
these popular ideas for why she was able
to do that and usually it came down to
sex and/or magic and that that was how
Cleopatra got through and so over the
last couple thousand years it's kind of
our idea our image of Cleopatra is kind
of come up from this this brew seen
through Roman eyes and it's only very
recent that people have really kind of
06:46
started to dig in and try to examine her
academically and with what you know
small meager first-hand sources and
accounts they exist yeah I mean she
ruled ancient Egypt she was the last
Pharaoh she was the first woman
sovereign to rule all by herself for
more than a decade which was quite an
accomplishment oh yeah and how she got
there is a very long and sort of
convoluted story yeah when you think of
07:18
Egypt chuck could we think of like
Pharaohs and Isis and Osiris and all of
that sure and we think of Cleopatra -
but Cleopatra was different she was
different from all the Pharaohs that
came before or she was different from
most of the Pharaohs that came before
and that she came from a family line
that had been established only about 350
years before when Alexander the Great's
general Ptolemy said Alexander died were
dividing up his kingdom I'm taking Egypt
07:48
and he said hey Egyptians you know you
had this line of pharaohs that ruled the
country well he got a new one and it's
me and my descendants yeah and I'm not
Egyptian I'm actually Macedonian but I'm
in charge here and I'm naming myself
Ptolemy the first Souter I believe it's
su tío R which means savior of Egypt and
he established the Ptolemaic line and
from that point on all of the people who
ruled as pharaohs over Egypt came from
08:20
Ptolemy
and his his children yeah I mean that
was a few hundred years worth a pretty
good run there mmm it was a pretty good
run but you don't think
like you know you think of Cleopatra is
a pharaoh like any other Pharaoh she
wasn't she was different she was
probably of Macedonian descent because
she was descended from Ptolemy but they
also are not sure
was she Egyptian to like ethnic Egyptian
rhyme some people believe that she was
sub-saharan African descent it's just
totally up in the air of exactly what
08:52
her ethnicity was but she was definitely
not descended from the Pharaohs before
but in establishing this line Ptolemy
said well I get that you guys are really
big into the idea that that kings or
pharaohs and queens are divine so we're
gonna say that that applies to my line -
and what's this incest you guys are in -
we'll give that a try - in a bit the
Ptolemaic line carried on those customs
as well yeah so that the ptolemies
ptolemies ptolemies whatever you want to
09:23
say man they were Greek speakers and
observed Greek customs which if you're
living in Egypt it seems like a bit of a
contradiction because people in Egypt
weren't Greek and that kind of caused a
separation Cleopatra was was Cleopatra
Cleopatra which sounds like Cleopatra
sounds like a new comedy coming this
fall on NBC it totally does oh boy who
rules like her local you know Brooklyn
09:55
apartment building or something and she
comes in how they introduce her as a
character as she comes in rolled up in a
carpet sure in the pilot that she made
herself man missing writes itself
so Cleopatra distinguished herself by
coming in and we'll get to all this in
more detail but she was popular in Egypt
because she came in and she was like hey
what do you need Egypt I'm gonna speak
your languages right I'm gonna I'm gonna
be patriotic for Egypt and I'm gonna
speak a lot of languages cuz I'm super
smart and I don't in fact I speak so
10:26
many languages when I go to meet with
other leaders of other countries and
kingdoms I'm not even gonna need my
translators and I'm not even gonna need
my advisors around I can make my own
decisions because I'm speaking directly
to them in their native tongue
Egyptians love that but their her
officials and her trained Wildcats our
translators didn't really have a say but
her officials were like uh this is
upsetting well yeah because it
diminished their power they said well
you don't you know you're not consulting
with us before you start speaking to
10:57
these other foreign powers these other
leaders and she's like well I don't need
to I speak their language I can ask them
and decide for myself whether they're
telling the truth or what they actually
need or what they what they should get
so yeah the just the Ascension of
Cleopatra was different two ways it
diminished the power of the officials
that had been established by the time
her father died and left the place to
her and she was known as basically a
very patriotic Pharaoh and that she
spoke Egyptian and followed Egyptian
11:29
customs way more than any of the
Ptolemies before her head so that was
she was different in that respect
big-time right out of the gate yeah so
she assumed the throne as a I guess even
for the time a young woman of 18 years
old
mhm along with her her bratty little
ten-year-old brother told me 13 right
that guy there was a tradition there
that basically said if you're a woman
you need a male consort to rule so and
by the way Miriam say what and by the
12:00
way marry him yeah like technically you
have to get ceremony ceremonially
married but you know that's kind of
where it ends unless you don't want it
to end there because we're pretty
liberal on that front sure but the the
Kingdom of Egypt that she inherited was
not a healthy one it had floods and
famine it had a bad economy and it was
really up to her to forge alliances with
other places and other men in power too
12:31
to make Egypt what she thought it could
be starting with Julius Caesar yeah so
at the time so her father had kind of
mortgaged Egypt over to Rome to help
bail the economy out because things are
it was hard times even before Cleopatra
rose to power and that's what she
inherited so Rome already had a pretty
big interest in Egypt
Egypt was a client state of Rome yeah
rather than Rome officially ruling Egypt
13:01
and saying like we install the governor
all that stuff they they said you can
exist and we're gonna trade with you but
basically if we tell you to do something
you do it
yeah and that was kind of the the
relationship between Rome and Egypt so
it makes sense that she would say let me
let me get even more cozy cozy with Rome
but who's in power that was a really big
question at the time because when she
rose to power as co-ruler with her
little brother who by the way she
basically just wrote out of power
13:31
immediately oh yeah
she that was not an easy question to
answer because at the time Rome was
wracked by civil wars and specifically
there was a triumvirate a kind of a
shaky power sharing agreement between
Julius Caesar Pompey and Crassus I
believe right that's right and that is
Pompey he pronounced it we can't say
Pompey Excel get confusing
yeah it's pump I always said Pompey it
14:01
sounds so cute but he was a murderous
general give me a little pump II all
right stick that knife in somebody No
and also by the way later on Octavian
when did he become Augustus Oh that's
the Big Finish man okay we'll get to
that eventually
spoiler yeah because I got a little
confusing too all these different names
yes but that you are correct Octavian is
Augustus or one in the same right so
they both Joaquin Phoenix the Roman
14:34
Senate was on the side of Pompey mm-hmm
so Julius Caesar like you said that
there was this this this sort of deal
that they had going on was a really kind
of unsteady date on between civil wars
and the Roman Senate supported Pompey
and said Caesar you got to give up your
army man he said I'm not doing it in
fact not only that but I'm coming to
Italy guys he leads his his people into
Italy across the Rubicon yeah and
declares war against Pompey and his
15:06
forces and he wins
he eventually won quite quite
surprisingly because Pompey again had
that Senate backing and so he had the
senatorial forces which vastly
outnumbered Caesars forces but they were
just superior forces and Caesar
eventually defeated Pompey
well Pompey being closely aligned with
Egypt fled to Egypt yeah which is pretty
understandable you can also understand
what he would have fled to Egypt he was
15:35
the state designated guardian of Ptolemy
the 12th kids which was Cleopatra and
told me the 13th among others here we go
so he went and thought okay this will be
great I'll just sit around and eat
grapes for the rest of my days in Egypt
it's not a bad forced retirement sure it
was a nice place but when he got there
he found that Cleopatra and her sister
are sinewy arsenate Hall had been had
been forced into exile and that Pompey
the thirteenth was was in or not I'm
16:08
sorry Ptolemy the thirteenth like it's
not confusing enough already was
empowered this little boy King boy
Pharaoh was in power yeah and and
Ptolemy thought Caesar just won his his
vanquished enemy just showed up at my
doorstep I'm gonna get killed for
harboring this guy so I'm gonna have
Pompey killed and he did he had Pompey
killed and decapitated in an effort to
curry favor with Caesar didn't work
though no it did not work because Caesar
16:40
said hey hey I was gonna pardon that guy
you [ __ ] and and like become beloved to
the Roman citizens and you just cut his
head off
I'm coming for you and so Caesar crossed
into Egypt to invade and basically
depose Ptolemy the thirteen that's right
so he gets to Egypt now Caesar does he
declares martial law and basically moves
in to the Royal Palace ins like this is
my place now this is my place and so
Cleopatra at this point is like alright
here's the deal
I need Caesar support here if I'm gonna
17:12
get back on that throne right so I need
to curry favor with him and this is the
big carpet scene that we're talking
about in every
sort of pop-culture retelling of
Cleopatra's story said which means this
is probably true
Cleopatra gets back in there by sneaking
in hmm skirting the enemy lines and the
Roman barricades coming in and under the
under the dead of night rolled up in a
carpet and is then presented to Caesar
17:45
unrolled and he's like that was
fantastic
roller back up there and do it again
I've never seen anything like it she
begged Caesar for aid and it really did
apparently win him over and he's like I
like I like the cut of her jib right so
they became friends with benefits pretty
quickly out of the gate but but from
from every account of this it was in
18:19
again it was either Carper she was roll
up in a carpet or in like a some sort of
bag like that you carry bedding like beg
clothes in or whatever it she got Caesar
on her side like almost immediately and
so all of a sudden Cleopatra who had
been forced out of rule by Ptolemy xiii
was now aligned with the guy who had
just invaded Egypt and taken over and
declared martial law which was bad news
for Ptolemy it was also bad news for our
18:49
sinawe who had who had left she had come
back with Cleopatra and then left to go
have Ptolemy proclaim her queen of Egypt
so she traded sides and so Cleopatra
said hey Julius just a couple of quick
favors I want to get rid of Ptolemy the
thirteenth also who actually they found
out later that he drowned fleeing he
drowned in the Nile so Ptolemy the 13th
is taken care of the only person left
out of all I think five or six kids in
19:21
Cleopatra's family there's one left
Arsen away her younger sister she's like
I can't have her running around she's
already shown that she's duplicitous get
rid of her so Caesar to kind of show off
that he is take
over Egypt parades are sin away through
the town through I expose Alexandria in
Chains showing that he's vanquished her
and he to his surprise found that this
aroused the sympathy of the the people
19:52
living in the town and so he ends up
sparing our cinemas life which will come
back into play later and he he
vanquishes her in exile to the Temple of
Artemis at Ephesus which we talked about
in the the seven wonders of the ancient
world episode but so just put a pin in
that Chuck that our sin OE is alive she
just lives in Turkey an exile now that's
right and she's the only person who can
challenge Cleopatra's claim to the
Egyptian throne all right let's take a
break okay
20:24
let's get her ducks in a row all right
come back talk more about that carpet
trick
[Music]
Geico presents I witness interviews with
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there's a storm howling outside so I
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I just got a scratch on my chest your
21:00
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[Music]
okay so Ptolemies dead dead little
brothers dead sisters vanquished
yes Caesar at this point needs to he
needs money he needs to fund his return
to Rome and return to power and
21:36
Cleopatra's dad incured a lot of debts
via Egypt and he's like hey listen I
gotta like get this money back and he
said you're pretty cool that carpet
trick was awesome it's just gangbusters
so I need it's fine you can rule Egypt
the two of us here were great we have
the same you know I feel like we're on
the same level which was a very big deal
too for someone like Julius Caesar to
say that about a female ruler and he
stayed there for a while and they had a
22:08
kid his name was told me Caesar he was
you know later fully acknowledged from
Caesar that he was his child but it was
kind of like the lovechild thing right
he said yeah that's my kid he's great
good-looking kid but he's not my
official heir no but his name like I
said was told me Caesar they called him
Cesare Ian or Little Caesar more pizza
pizza right sure you saw that coming
from a mile away
yeah if you hadn't said it I would have
said it myself so all of a sudden
22:40
Cleopatra is there she's really sort of
solidified her position on every front
right right so she's got the backing of
Julius Caesar who has named himself
dictator for life by this time she got
my brother out of the way and sister out
of the way for now and and this is this
is it's really tough to overstate this
she has born an heir she's the only
steel she's the Pharaoh she's the ruler
of Egypt and she's now born an heir a
male heir who is not only a male errand
going to be the next pharaoh but he is
23:12
the blood descendant of Julius Caesar
himself yeah so Egypt is real happy with
Cleopatra at this moment Rome is not so
happy but it doesn't matter because
Caesars like the top dog in charge of
everything and things are going well for
a little while so much so that Caesar
that
Cleopatra and Little Caesar go visit big
Caesar in Rome for a little while and
set up household right across the river
from Caesars house
yeah and it's Caesar's house if you had
23:43
happened to go across the way and peek
in one of the windows you'd find Oh
Caesar has another family he's got a
wife and kids and they're not super
happy with him for having run around on
them and had another kid with Cleopatra
but what are you gonna do she's the
ruler of Egypt and by the way she's
spending the summer across the river
from us that's right
so as a ruler things are going pretty
great for Cleopatra um like I mentioned
earlier they really liked her she was
24:14
she related to the the people they
related to her like you said she lived
the Egyptian lifestyle she whenever she
had portraits drawn of herself she was
like did the Egyptian thing right
because it's great and the people will
love it she was identified on a papyrus
in 35 BC as she who loves her country
yeah Phillip adder in Greek she who
loves her country that's right but she
was a fully Egyptian pharaoh and a very
patriotic tand that just further like
24:46
cemented her position as someone beloved
by the Egyptians and it's at this point
that it's like it's pretty obvious that
it's a real shame that you didn't get
any writings from the Egyptians mm-hmm
you know yeah yeah there was there were
some busts I believe of her possibly
that may have been lost there was a coin
that turned up but for the most part
like they didn't really document her
rule which again it's really really
weird but there are some like like it
25:19
was a massive bureaucracy that she
operated it was not just Egypt but it
was a huge chunk of North East Africa
and South West Mediterranean that she
ruled over and you know being in league
with Caesar definitely didn't hurt
things so Empire kept expanding she but
on her own this is the thing like it's
not lost on us everybody who's listening
the
we're telling this story through the
fact that Caesar is a huge part of her
25:51
life or that room whatever Rome's doing
this is the the documentary evidence we
have but there's also other evidence too
very sparse evidence but there is
evidence that like with or without
Caesar like she was afforded like a
bigger opportunity by being in league
with Caesar but she took that in ran
with it on her own without the the
direct aid of Caesar
so she expanded her empire she started
trading to further in further areas like
Arabia there's potential evidence that
they were trading as far away as India
26:22
at the time and she was really good from
what we could tell at figuring out what
somebody needed and making them
dependent on her for it one of the way
she would do that was like she
identified people who could help her to
like later on after Caesar died there
would be a general who was really
important he was stationed in Egypt so
it would it was really good to fur her
to be on good terms with him so she
basically gave him a tax break that said
26:55
hey you can bring in five thousand
amphora of wine from rome every year
tax-free you can export ten thousand
bags of wheat tax-free that must have
been an enormous amount of money that
that this guy saved and the way that she
would do this in her own style was found
later on so on this royal decree saying
that this is the case in her handwriting
she wrote guinness toy which is greek
27:26
for make it so and they found this
there's like a document out there that
has Cleopatra's handwriting on it but it
was basically to make sure that this guy
felt taken care of so he would remain
our ally and that's how she operated she
knew very clearly how to make people
like her or how to make them dependent
on her and then under that she signed
her name and then put TCB with a
lightning bolt through it you know
what's cool is that document they found
27:58
it accidentally
it was used as lining for a sarcophagus
that a mummy was found in and somehow
they found this thing and figured out
this is Cleopatra's handwriting amazing
it is pretty amazing to have that that
that relic you know exists in the world
still so later on 46 BCE Caesar returned
to Rome and then Cleopatra like you said
went there at some point to visit and
this is where this is where the big
acknowledgment that little Caesar was
28:30
was his son but not the heir where that
finally happened yeah and Caesar was
murdered very famously I don't know if
you people have heard about that but he
was staggered back today quite literally
yeah on my birthday Cleopatra goes back
to Egypt told me 14 dies soon after this
and that means little Caesar is all of a
sudden co-regent with mommy as Ptolemy's
29:00
25 I'm sorry 15 right told of me 15
right so now little Caesar is officially
the air I think by this time he was like
13 or 16 or something like that he was
he was kidding up there in years
no I'm sorry that was later on so yeah
here's the little kids still he's three
he was three okay so um look after
Caesar dies like everything's kind of up
in the air this is a pretty big surprise
to everybody but Caesar had boys right
he had people that loved him one of
29:32
which was Octavian who was his
grandnephew I think who's Caesar
allegedly adopted there was also another
one named Mark Antony who was Caesars
kind of right-hand man and they said hey
you know what this is not cool we're
gonna get Brutus and Cassius who
orchestrated this assassination and
another civil war erupted in Rome yeah
we can't leave out Lapidus because this
was the official second triumvirate okay
you're right and you can't be a
30:03
triumvirate without Lapidus no gotta
have that third guy in there it's just a
do um for it no one likes those that's
right so 42 BC there was the Battle of
Philippi
and the forces of Mark Antony and
Octavian defeated Brutus and Cassius
yeah and then that means Mark Antony can
emerge as ruler of the east which
included Egypt very importantly in
Octavian held the West on the west side
all right but both of them said we need
the support of Egypt which is a very big
deal
30:34
Cleopatra basically you know was
summoned by Mark Antony and she was like
you know what summoned assist and she
was like I'm gonna clean Cleopatra I'm
gonna come when I want to come right
which was sort of a bold move at the
time yeah yeah because he was basically
accusing her of potentially having given
aid to Brutus and Kassius during the
civil war and she and she's saying not
only am i not even responding the
allegation I'm not even gonna show up to
31:04
talk to you until I want to but when she
does show up apparently
she made another very grand entrance and
this one was memorialized by William
Shakespeare in the play Mark Anthony and
Cleopatra appropriately and she shows up
in this this town called Tarsus in
modern-day Turkey on a barge a royal
barge and these barges by the way dude
these are like this is not what you
think of as like a barge you know I
31:36
guess it is kind of what you think of as
a barge but larger and more opulent how
about that yeah I mean it was she came
in to make a statement right there were
she was dressed as Aphrodite there were
purple purple sales there were lutes
playing she basically had a band she was
laying on a couch on clouds of incense
mm-hmm and Mark Antony just like Julie
Caesar was like whoa Wow we won't know
how to make an entrance
yeah and he said you know what I'd like
32:07
to dine with you can you come here and
dine with me and she said no why don't
you come upon this ship and you dine
with me he very famously said can you
come here and dine with me and he did
get aboard that ship and he did dine
with her and he was very much taken with
her and she you know
ultimately I think she very much loved
him in the end but she it early on it
the very least knew what she needed from
him yeah because again this guy's the
32:37
the Roman ruler of Egypt basically and
her job is to make it so Rome doesn't
ever officially rule Egypt so at the
very least it stays at arm's length
enough so Egypt King can be a client
state but she also needs to make sure
that she doesn't go to war with them
because they would probably crush Egypt
so she's dancing this real fine line and
again just like with Caesar she
basically said hey guy I like the I like
the cut of your jib let's figure out an
alliance and let's also do it a lot too
33:09
and with it's like you said though it's
like you said that like whether whether
it was because she needed something from
him and he also was very much dazzled by
her wealth as well or her display of
wealth but there does seem to have been
unless it's just totally fabricated a
real love story between the two of them
yeah I mean they had three kids together
right she goes back to Egypt and he's
not too far behind at this point he's
like alright I got a kid over here to
Egypt and see my lady
33:39
and his wife phobia said uh wait a
minute I'm your lady and we have kids
together and he says yeah but you know
what I'm gonna go over there anyway
because you know that's just kind of how
things worked back then sure there's
before texts that's right
he spent the winter of forty forty-one
there in Alexandria they were getting
along famously they formed a drinking
group called the inimitable livers I
already had these big huge parties and
feasts and this is one of the very
34:10
famous legends of Cleopatra came about
when she took a pearl and dissolved it
it was a very expensive pearl valued at
10 million samolians which was enough to
maintain ten thousand Roman soldiers for
a full year it's a lot of dough that's a
lot of dough and just to prove her
wealth
she dissolves the sing in a cup of
vinegar and drinks it and Mark Antony
was like oh my gosh this lady is brewing
amazing did you see what she just did
she just drank a pearl
34:40
just wasted so much money I'm so turned
on right now
so they have twins Alexander Helios and
Cleopatra Selene and this is kind of the
boom time for Cleopatra and Egypt she's
really solidified her stronghold and
everything is sort of going her way at
this point yeah in part because Marc
Anthony said I got to get back to Rome
I'd like to show up really victorious
you know one of those barges you got I'd
love to have one of those I need some
35:12
money from you and with Caesar before
again
Cleopatra's father Ptolemy the 12th had
kind of our mortgaged Egypt to Rome this
had not happened had grown had kind of
gotten out of that economic funk when
Cleopatra had had taken over and she had
started to steer it even better
or in better directions so now this was
just straight-up Mark Anthony
borrowing from Egypt which helped put
him in her pocket and she said I would
35:44
like to expand my empire he's had done
so he gave to Cleopatra a lot of Roman
Holdings that Egypt had formerly held
and the Empire just expanded by a pretty
decent proportion overnight just with
the the sweep of Mark Antony's hand in
exchange for her setting him up to go
back to Roman style which he did all
right so let's take a break okay and
we're gonna come back and talk about the
cracks that start to form right after
this
36:13
[Applause]
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36:45
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[Music]
so Chuck no good time can go on forever
it turns out and Cleopatra story
definitely brings that one home too
that's right so you didn't like that
37:54
setup no I thought it was great
it was like I put the the ball on the
the orange cone and it just kind of fell
over so Mark Antony does a very
controversial thing he declares Little
Caesar rightful heir
rather than Octavian right which is to
Julius Caesar that's correct
and he awarded land to each of his
children with Cleopatra we mentioned the
twins we did not mention total of me
Philadelphus who's the third kid mm-hmm
38:25
and this really upset Octavian as it
probably should so he knew that that the
Roman people were kind of sick of
hearing about Cleopatra they were sick
of hearing about all of these wars going
on that these generals are carrying out
and he knew that the he knew that it was
sort of the perfect time to mount a
propaganda campaign to turn everyone
against them yeah because the Romans
were like had another civil war between
two powerful generals that are Co ruling
come on and Octavian had a really good
38:57
idea of saying okay okay I can't turn
everybody against Mark Anthony directly
but I can turn him against Cleopatra
really easily so I'll just start this
propaganda campaign that says Cleopatra
is a threat to Rome she has using her
her Wiles or her her magic or whatever
convinced Marc Anthony to give up chunks
of Rome and to declare her son Caesars
rightful heir we got to get rid of
Cleopatra poor Marc Anthony is just her
39:28
her mesmerised puppet basically so he
achieves the same in turning people on
Marc Anthony but rather than doing it
directly he uses Cleopatra and they're
kind of suspicions of her being a
foreign temptress as as the the crux
through which she does it yeah and you
know some of this was some of this stuff
was true some of it was made up
Octavian said hey listen
I've got his will yeah and you know what
he's done he's turned over Roman
40:00
possessions to Cleopatra and you know
what he's gonna make Alexandria in Egypt
the capital of Rome you can just hear
the gasp oh yeah and it was a big big
deal so in 32 BC the Roman Senate got
involved they stripped mark-anthony of
his titles and Octavian says all right
Cleopatra it's time for us to go at it
we're going to war your charms will not
work on me mm-hmm
and they they had not worked and I think
Cleopatra knew this all along so this
all fed into the narrative that
40:31
Cleopatra was from Egypt and from a
different culture that they don't align
with she lives there and she's super
wealthy and she's doing these dealings
with the Far East and India and at the
time those places were I guess in Rome
seeing is just very sort of
controversial and weird and they thought
they practiced in the occult and alchemy
and all these strange things and she's
doing business with them and she's a bad
41:02
bad lady right right so yeah it was just
foreign and weird this is basically how
Rome viewed Egypt right so the idea that
that was going to be their new seat of
power did not sit very well with them
whether that was true or not I don't
know but it worked it got it got the
Roman Senate and the people turned
against Marc Anthony so much so that
Octavian was able to launch an assault
on Egypt and on Cleopatra and Mark
Antony which was successful right and
41:32
they this article makes it kind of sound
like it happened almost overnight I
think it took place over the course of a
year so between when the when Rome
turned on Marc Antony and when Octavian
was at Egypt store but at some point
Mark Antony during the siege during this
this war between Egypt and Rome which is
something Cleopatra had avoided the
whole time basically her whole reign was
about preventing this from happening
Mark Antony decided that he had he had
42:04
lost his place of honor in the world and
that he should take
his own life he also according to legend
heard that Cleopatra had taken her life
and so in response and because he had
lost his place of honor he killed
himself
basically through Hari curry which is
like stabbing yourself with your sword
disemboweling yourself that's what he
did with his own sword and and and I was
at death's door I guess when he heard
42:35
oh wait wait that was just a rumor
Cleopatra didn't actually kill herself
yeah and supposedly if you believe the
the legend Octavian did allow him to be
brought to Cleopatra and he died in her
arms and she tore her clothes and
smeared his blood all over her face and
shrieked out he's my master and husband
and commander and that's if you believe
the legend of course yeah it sounds a
little trumped-up to me but you never
43:05
know so Octavian at this point is in a
pretty good position he says he's got it
right where he wants her and he knows it
and she knows it and he said to listen I
want you to come back to Rome and you're
gonna be a captive and I'm gonna kind of
parade you through the streets as a
symbol of our victory mm-hm and she knew
that this would be like just that the
great humiliation of her life and in
career so she said all right I need a
little time to prepare myself which you
43:37
know the writing's on the wall here that
she is going to die a noble death by
taking her own life but she didn't do it
right away it took about a week because
she was still trying to still trying to
save things up until the very end which
is pretty remarkable so on August 12 30
BC Antony is buried
Cleopatra meets with Octavian she closes
herself in a chamber with two of her
servants and we're not exactly sure how
44:07
she got it depends on the legend that
you that you choose to believe but she
got poison right and committed suicide
along with her servants and apparently
and this is from Plutarch's records one
of the Roman officers burst in as
was happening and yell defined heed this
and one of the one of the servants was
basically like yeah it is a fine thing
because she went out on her own terms
jerk yeah basically that's the I guess
paraphrasing sure she said nothing could
be finer for this lady the descendant of
44:39
so many kings right that was char Mian
and the other servant was iris IRAs and
like you said like they're not quite
sure how she got that poison and so a
legend grew up that she had used an
aspic Cobra and it allowed it to bite
her so that she could die but if you
kind of put two and two together
supposedly she sent a note to Octavian
to stall for time but was he figured out
what she was doing fast enough that
45:11
there was maybe a course of minutes that
transpired between that she would have
had to have taken this poison and died
and it takes like an hour or something
like that to die from a cobra bite so
people say probably not Cobra but where
would she have gotten that poison since
she was under such close guard and one
theory that's emerged is do you remember
when Caesar paraded our sin OE through
the streets and ended up generating
sympathy for her unintentionally yes
supposedly Octavian remembered that and
45:42
according to this theory and didn't want
to do the same thing by parading
Cleopatra through the streets so he
never had any intention of doing that
and instead went ER and said look I can
kill you or you can take your own life
you seem like the kind of lady who'd
want to take her own life
if you do this we'll celebrate it that
kind of thing and and that's that's why
she or how she got the poison because
she was kind of allowed to be given that
option that's just a theory but no one
knows all we know is that Cleopatra
46:15
almost certainly did take her own life
most likely through poison of some sort
that's right so she was buried next to
Mark Antony which was according to her
wishes of course and you know because we
don't have writings from Egyptians it's
mainly like we said from the Roman
perspective
she's viewed through different lenses
some people have portrayed her like we
said earlier as super capable and
dynamic and super smart and other people
46:47
have portrayed her as just like leaning
on her wiles as a woman and being more
cunning than strategic I think you know
somewhere in the middle is probably the
truth she probably did what she had to
do in certain occasions but that
certainly doesn't mean she also wasn't
like a brilliant leader on her own terms
right and this article actually points
out it's pretty ironic that were it not
for the propagandists who were working
for Octavian who were trying to
basically disassemble any good memory of
her and paint her as a terrible person
47:19
who almost brought down Rome were it not
for Octavian to save Rome itself
she would have were worried not for
those biographers she may have been lost
to history like there's a lot of
pharaohs and hopes history that we just
don't know anything about and she could
have ended up being one of them even
though she was a successful Pharaoh for
Egypt we may never have known about her
were it not for these guys like Lucan
and Plutarch who wrote about her and
commemorated or and memorialized her
47:49
yeah and I think I mean I don't think
there's any disputing the fact that she
was at the very least one of the more
charming and intelligent rulers of the
time she just had sort of a way about
her um all the readings where like you
couldn't help but be captivated by her
when you're in her presence the with her
speaking voice has always been written
about and I think she just she had that
that just certain indefinable quality
48:19
there's been a lot of debate on her
looks over the years but to me that's I
don't even know why people still talk
about that stuff it's funny because
people do and both men and women do like
whenever somebody like shows a picture
of what she probably looked like in real
life based on like like a coin came out
and it came to light in 2007 and people
really were she's not pretty how could
she possibly have have you know achieved
all this if she wasn't pretty there's
just a bunch on with that but
48:50
this one historian put it really really
well the impact she made on the ancient
world is overlooked because the world
has this obsession when it comes to
women people can only judge them on
whether they were beautiful nobody ever
said Mark Antony how handsome was he and
this really just it just really drives
the point home really well I think that
that people are obsessed with this idea
of that she was beautiful and it really
does undermine like whatever she was
capable of and when people think like
that you're just carrying on a 2,000
49:22
year old tradition that began in Rome
around the time of Octavian I'm not
gonna talk about it so you you asked
about Octavian becoming Augustus right
no I didn't ask I was just yes you were
setting me up for it tell that story I
want to tell this story you don't mind I
don't so i Cleopatra killed herself on
August 12th of 30 BCE and Octavian
decided to commemorate this
49:52
extraordinary triumph over Cleopatra in
Egypt and over Mark Antony and his
ascension to full ruler of Rome by
taking the name Augustus so when we're
marking the month of August the eighth
month of the year were actually
commemorating the defeat and the death
of Cleopatra amazing it is amazing you
knew that all along huh all I know is
that we have four live shows in August
to commemorate this event where would
you get tickets if you are gonna go
Chuck that's why I asked a live if you
50:24
lived in one particular City that you
had to pick to go get tickets as many
people as possible what would that City
be poor Chicago in Portland Maine okay
great
well you heard Chuck everybody do it for
Cleopatra she wills it that's right if
you wanna know more about Cleopatra just
go start reading up there's apparently a
whole slate of really good biographies
that have come out recently so you got
plenty of stuff to work with and since I
said that it's time for a listener mail
hey guys want to reach out and let you
50:55
know that my stepson loves listening to
your show we share custody with my
husband's ex-wife and not to go into
those complicated details but to be able
to spend time spend as much time as I
possibly can with him I Drive them to
school and pick him up from school can
take anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes
mm-hmm
zach is ADHD and on an IEP and the
typical school environment can be
challenging for him he's worked really
hard this year building skills and has
come quite a long way in the fourth
grade
where he goes that yeah man but when we
51:26
find an alternative way to foster this
love of learning that he enjoys we
really embrace it he really loves
listening to stuff you should know
during the long car rides way to go Zack
again he is a super smart kiddo and is
especially engaged in the topics you
guys cover his latest favorite was
finish cases of really bad luck
so his dad and I strive to model our
values one of the great one of great
importance is that time together and
experiences Trump material goods with
his 10-year milestone birthday
approaching I've been thinking about
51:57
this quite a bit when I thought maybe
just maybe Josh and Chuck could give him
a shout out oh wow it would be the
highlight of his decade and a killer
birthday present from a killer stepmom
to her beloved kid oh that is for Mandy
so Zach buddy the happiest happiest of
birthdays to you as you turn 10 that is
a very big deal because you are a double
digit human being now and it sounds like
you are doing great and sailing toward
your teenage years with with confidence
and intelligence yep
52:29
congratulations on your big one Oh Zach
it's a big one yes it is happy birthday
wow that was a nice one Chuck well done
thanks if you want to get in touch with
us like Mandy did that's pretty rare
that we do that kind of thing but you
never know I guess you could take a shot
right yes okay you can go on to stuff
you should know calm and check out our
social links that's probably not gonna
help much so if you really want to get
something like this done
you should write us an email you can
53:00
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54:11
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