SUBTITLES:
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00:00
friend of mine is the benedict
cumberbatch and today we will be talking
about his new film
power of the dog uh which i'm very
excited to talk to you about mate and
firstly
congratulations the movie is
it's breathtaking it's incredible thank
you so much and thank you thank you for
going to do this and chatting to me
um i got to talk to you about it i know
you saw it quite recently it's
interesting the film is so
shocking
and it's so gut-wrenching and the
intricacies of your character
00:30
i've never seen a character arc quite
like it
you know because
because i know you so well i think i
come from a very sort of privileged
standpoint where when i meet you in the
beginning of the film i'm like whoa
that's not the benedict that i know
what on earth is going on here
and i you know for the first time in
knowing you i really like hated you i
thought you were horrible and so just
grotesque
and awful and as the film progresses
what i loved about it was that it has
these themes of toxic masculinity and
01:01
gaslighting but it explores the problem
rather than the problem of being present
and it kind of not that his actions are
justified in any way but it you
understand why he is the way he is
i think you know that takes jane uh and
it takes thomas savage i think this man
is utterly wrapped up in a pretzel of
hate and pain and you discover what the
causality is behind that and you know i
think this is a hard watch you know it's
just behind what i say
is repugnant and i think i've had some
01:33
reactions to people saying i can't watch
all of your film you're so awful i don't
know why i'm doing american accent but
the majority of people spoke to do you
have american accents
um and uh about it and they just feel so
disgusted and
or
like you said sort of
i don't know their security in watching
me as performers sort of on the mind
because
i was totally committed to being in in
the right
various colors and i
i then get the reaction of people that
you know they go back to it maybe a
02:03
second time through or even like you
start off in this position of being
repelled and then lean in
and see him as
what he is really she's a tragic figure
and i think
i think the most important aspect of it
you completely hit the nail on the head
is to actually you know look under the
hood and examine why this behavior
happens because yeah it is something
that's prevalent in our culture it is
something that 100 years on from this
story is still sadly very very prevalent
in but you know at all levels of society
whether it's
strong men on the political
02:35
field or whether it's just you know
people can we encounter on our
day-to-day thankfully not too many in
our business but
it does exist and
we're not going to be able to move on
from the conversation at least at the
beginning the most important thing is to
support survivors of abuse sure to
stand with them and ally with them
but once that has been done we also need
to have the conversation about
masculinity about what
the causes of it becoming toxic are
03:07
in order to be able to be better fathers
to our sons to bring them up as
feminists as people who truly understand
that equality inclusivity and
gentleness and kindness and
this man has suffered a lot in his youth
in an era where
his
true self his true sexual identity is
not only
not understood by the world and
criminalized by the world but also not
understood by himself because he has no
other context to understand with apart
from the one person he loved who dies
when he's 19. that's in the book it's
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not in the film but he witnesses bronco
henry being trampled to death in a
corral accident
um
so everything about him
everything about his development is
arrested it's it's stunted
and that's how bad it can get
you know that
it's not to lay all the blame on that um
it's it's but it is a combination of
that his brother who
through
that time has maybe understood or known
about it but never ever addressed it
moving away from him after this 25 years
04:10
course of century celebration that he is
the only legitimate way he can bring
bronco back into his life
as this sort of figurehead and then
legendary kind of what he wished he was
really um for everybody
um
and that celebration is of no interest
to a brother who's looking to the future
the only thing my character phil can do
is to look to the past in order to make
sense of who he is he's denied that in
the beginning then the person who really
denies
him his brother is this woman who he
04:40
sees as a threat he doesn't want to
examine her as anything other than the
threat he feels and becomes defensive
and aggressive in gaslighting and
psychologically torturing towards her
because he feels she's
stealing something he and his brother
bill
and then this son who in the first
instance is a point of ridicule to make
you know the men laugh and then beyond
that when he becomes
real through their rose and george's
marriage he could be the next heir to
this
land this show fortune this this work
05:11
that with bronco without rocket they've
built over 25 years so
it's like a
perfect storm in this character's
heart and soul and psyche and
i i think he's capable of great cruelty
there are anecdotes in the book there's
a gift obviously a flashback to fill in
his past his backstory
but um
everything that you see in the film for
me comes from all of those ingredients
cooking away at boiling point and
and so naturally playing of course i
understand i feel for the guy despite
05:42
the horrendous collateral damage he does
in destroying a woman's confidence and
forcing her to drink to survive and and
reducing the
the young man's tears and
being pretty hard on on everyone and not
suffering fools clapping so
yeah it you really hit it on the head
and i think that's one of the key draws
and
i don't know what it would have been
like in anyone's hands but jane because
this is incredible she's extraordinary i
think
you know without she's not vilified him
she's much exactly
that needs understanding rather than
06:13
just
painting into a corner of being the bad
guy
yeah see that's what i loved about the
film was that i was constantly
second-guessing my decisions as to
whether i liked you or sympathized for
you you know and i think a really
interesting thing because i've watched a
few video essays about the movie since i
watched it and something i don't think
anyone has picked up on is whether
um george's character is aware of his
abuse
because more so than any character he
seems to give phil
06:43
kind of a free pass
anytime he behaves incredibly badly
george is almost apologizing to him
especially when he asks him to wash up
and i wonder whether
how how you feel about
the thought of did he understand the
trauma and the abuse that phil had gone
through or is that something he's
oblivious to i think i'm so conditioned
to my opinion through the sort of very
isolated and singular focus i had on on
phil and also the book itself is a very
phil centric experience so
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that solidified in my head that george
didn't have a clue
that just you know
he's adults he's he's somebody who's
codependent and doesn't know any other
life outside of being body shamed and t
and having his goat god as it says in
the book uh through phil
and when he when he experiences empathy
and then receives empathy and kindness
back from rose his whole world just it
explodes in a good way he becomes
capable of love and and
capable of being loved
however i'm not the active player george
07:45
i think i've said this publicly and then
jesse's gone and you know nobody could
think what he wants but i
knew everything because you know and i
think jesse being the kind of
extraordinary um excavator of psyche and
and a brilliant master of naturalism
that he is you know he's got a fair
point i think
i don't think in that yeah i think it's
very easy from the 21st century to sort
of project
uh a more
um nuanced or subtle understanding of
things i'm not saying jesse's doing that
but i think sure he would have known
about him and brock he wouldn't know
08:14
what it was necessarily he might know
that there was some kind of intimacy
there i think however underground this
was however
repressed homosexuality was in that era
i still think
people would have known it or understood
it they just wouldn't have had um a
means of doing that you know i mean um
yeah there's no place in society
obviously like we said before to kind of
accept it for sure um
i mean for it to be a criminal act let
alone something that was sort of morally
seen as being abhorrent and ungodly and
08:46
all the rest of the prejudice of that
time
and i think
i mean this is again it's a question for
jesse to answer but i think he has
whether it's conscious or unconscious he
has a sympathy for his brother because
of that and there's other reasons he
does have that
same hysterical suffering of everything
that phil throws it
but like i said i think it not to say
it's the first time he i think fatso and
all the rest of the horrific kind of
abusive land which he uses just so
freely with his brother
um
09:16
is is a pattern of old but i think it's
really cranked up obviously in these
moments of um
of this kind of crisis coming to a head
in the film and losing it this woman
yeah it's interesting it's almost like a
it's almost like a form of toxic
masculinity in itself in the sense that
to me as the audience member i was of
the understanding that he had some sort
of clue or inkling that this trauma and
abuse had gone on and his lack of
empathy or his lack of ability to say
are you okay do you want to talk about
09:46
this yeah it's kind of another form of
toxic masculinity in the sense that you
know us is bloke sometimes we find it
hard to reach out and offer a helping
hand because it's
weak i guess it's interesting is the
other piece i for me i think it was
definitely
the abuse of societal i think it was a
very um
complicit and um
actual love affair really uh between
women i i think personally but i mean
tell me tell me why you think it was
abusive what gave you that idea
10:19
i think just the understanding though
because it's like this is the most
interesting thing to me is talking to
people who've seen the film it's like
the amount of sure he lets you in as an
audience she's not prescribing
right of course you know a judgment or a
way of thinking about it or
interpretation everyone's reaction valid
so it's yeah yeah i guess for me like
maybe the word abuse is the wrong word
but i just assumed that your character
was very very young when all of this
happened
the way he kind of talks in the sense
that he is looking up to bronco henry
10:52
to me seems like a 13 year old boy
looking up to a 19 year old boy i
haven't even talked about it
i know you're quite right and you're
near and i can even remember big but
like it's true but it's true i think if
you have an older mentor there's a huge
power and is it abusive power for that
to become
sexualized and you're quite right i
i don't know i don't know and i don't
think that's exactly
interpretation it is up for
interpretation you're absolutely right
um
and that's the least i i wanted to pick
it up because it's the first time i've
11:23
heard that and and yeah
um
yeah that's it's fascinating
yeah
because he wouldn't have had a huge
power over him for sure
it definitely comes across that way i
mean the way that you are in the sun and
you're rubbing the handkerchief it was
almost like you were hypnotized there
was like a
this kind of it was incredible it's an
amazing thought and for me
once i had the aspect of abuse
was when i started to sympathize with
phil
11:53
was when i that was for me the catalyst
of like oh okay so this person has been
through kind of what he's doing
for me it's his heart broken he's still
connected to there's a sensuality in
remembering the man in that moment which
brings him back to it being a very
physical act as well as profound
soulful love of another human being and
i think
uh yeah but i think
it's that's it's just such a that's
really so exciting that's what i love
about this film it's kind of you know
it's
amazing it could be turned on its head
12:25
by someone else's reading of it
um
amazing something else i loved about the
film is that
you look online and it says oh this
film's a western this film's a western
and it's really not it's a
tragedy it's like an epic tragedy and i
saw an interview that you did
and you spoke about it's a western but
without guns
i think the fact that you can tell this
story without that and it it it's it's
an incredible feat and jane campion i
mean
she's done an incredible job of piecing
this together
but um but maybe talk about the sort of
12:55
themes of this kind of great tragedy set
in the you know beautiful landscape of
montana it's a very interesting time um
and george sort of marks the future not
just because he's looking to rose but
he's interested in his car and he's
always tinkering his car and it is the
beginning of mechanization it's a sort
of transitional era which again i think
sort of destabilizes phil he's very much
wedded to the old way of doing things um
the manual
sort of
analog way for a better term um but but
the manual that doing things literally
13:27
with his hands
even gloves to him as being a tool too
many um and i think
it's an era where land despite its scale
is becoming more
something that's become a little bit
more important
in a way
rose's of isolation and the kind of
the the difficulty of being
in a place
called home that becomes a prison not
just because of how cavernous home is
14:04
the weather of that landscape is pretty
inhospitable to those who work the land
who don't work without you don't know
how to survive it
contain it to a degree
and i think
those are two very big themes that
collide in that moment in history in
montana um
you know
ranch owners were the sort of
bezos and bransons of that era and these
parents in particular were kind of
playing at it so instead of throwing
rockets into space they they go from
being rich brahmanas on the east coast
to taking them around
14:35
and having a go at being
ranchers in the west
and it's a very specific examination of
that becoming then a real thing and a
real way of life for both of their sons
i mean george is very well into his life
to an extent if not with uh
bronco and his brother but you know
david have both worked and got to be out
for 25 years doing what they do loving
what they do and yeah sold on it and
they didn't they you know
in the book it's it's touched on in the
film as well that you know he might not
15:05
phil went ivy league and was was a
a scholarly student um
and yet he dresses and talks like folk
he's somebody who's holding on to a
level of authenticity which that kind of
pioneering west
personifies you've got george who's
moving into the mechanized version of it
you've got
rose who represents hospitality and
um you know
the kind of the the leisure the panano
the piano and you've got a son who
represents literature and medicine and
15:37
education and
and
aesthetic which is completely the future
in cody's character of peter
so these characters this sort of quartet
psychodrama represent
in my opinion you know far far bigger
themes of that shifting era um and that
really is the sort of titanic beauty of
the novel and again what jane i think
really seizes on in
the economy of her script and um
and her edit of the film
is within this propulsive narrative that
16:09
just
continues like a juggernaut towards its
sort of shocking conclusion you've got
these really heavyweight themes which
are so integrated within the body of the
story the character that it doesn't feel
that we're going hey guys um this is a
political commentary on sexism guys this
is a little bit like into what it was
like to live on in that year it just is
so embedded it's so
uh about um
it's so about the entire world of of the
film that that i think is one of the
things that kind of resonates with
people um
16:38
and it it its pace you know yeah like
you said there's no guns but my god you
know a door snap or a clink of a spur or
the sound of the banjo being played
those are the gunshots those are the
absolutely i think that's what's so
wonderful about jane is the same with
top of the lake she's uncompromising in
her edit you know if something is
uncomfortable she will let you sit with
it and as an audience member there are
moments like when she spend the piano
and you're playing the banjo
while you're enjoying the scene because
of the drama you're like willing it to
be over
17:10
her pain and it just doesn't end
and
it's it's it's an incredible i guess
asset of hers to be so brave to allow
these films to have the time and the
pace
to make the audience feel uncomfortable
um
because i haven't seen a film like it
like oh ben what are you doing
in this toxic mess um well you know i i
agree and i i think that's one of the
drawers as an actor as you know from
from cherry and you're completely
extraordinary and uncompromising dive
into
17:42
a boy a man child being changed from an
innocent falling in love
to to just
that character up all the way to being
um an addict who eventually gets out of
prison spoiler alert but you know it is
such an uncompromising look at a very
modern tragedy of
unemployed listless youth uh the draw of
the army to give structure the disparate
nature of young lives because of
separations around college jobs and
opportunity and house prices and
people seeing that as being a way to see
18:14
the world being sold that and then the
devastating experience of combat itself
and then those support afterwards and
the psychological trauma and the ptsd
and the
just that you know
and
you know joe and anthony don't look away
either um they play stuff in slow mo and
it's not all just about you know you
getting high in slow motion like no this
is this is this is the emotion
of someone who's at the very very bottom
and you're wading through it with them
and but still part of you is
is willing that person to be to be good
18:46
it should be better to be whole to be
safe to be nourished to be loved be
cared for the idea behind that shot and
letting it play out in slow-mo is that
rock bottom feels like forever you know
when you're when you've hit rock bottom
or where you're going through something
that's incredibly hard or depressing it
feels like it's never ending
and i think
the idea of that shot was to make the
audience understand that like
there might be light at the end of the
tunnel but it's a very very long way
away you're fearless in what you did in
your craft in that film and science and
joe they're uncompromising gays on it
19:17
and so is so is jane and i think you
know
you know it's like working with the
russos i i know it's like joking and i
know you would absolutely love what you
don't know what it's like working with
the resources but you more intimately
and i think
you would any actor worth i thought
would
have a gen champion right of it because
she
she not only
wants you to go
to a place of really uncomfortable truth
in something but she's also really a
facilitating process and
the space to feel confident about
anything you feel secure about which for
me playing this role i was so far
19:49
outside of my wheel
the experience it really taught me
thrilling
on page and in conversation with her and
then suddenly i was like oh god i bet
you've got to do this and she was great
she got that she look i've got
confidence in we all do but you feel
insecure about a thing let us know we'll
help you i went right
getting my horse riding western style
all of it everything that that manifests
his kind of um his prowess and he is you
know the book he is truly a master of
all of these things so i had great help
and i really marinated in that character
for a long time as opposed to what i
20:24
usually end up doing you know this this
resonates with you just kind of it feels
like you're building the plane as it's
taking off most of the time yeah of
course yeah i mean
how often do we make a film when your
first day of shooting and they're like
so we're still working on the third act
well we're not sure how it's gonna work
as well yeah um but tell me about tell
me about the process because i mean for
me obviously someone that knows you very
well
the the physicality of what you were
doing was so authentic you know in you
know even the way you were making the
rope the way you're riding the horses
rolling your cigarettes playing the
20:54
banjo tell me about that process of
building this character and and
making it so
on this one um
i mean first first of all first just i
mean as far as source material you know
the book is an incredible blueprint for
character and physicality and a little
bit like watson describing sherlock
there's such a detailed kind of
uh understanding visually for me of who
this character is to the point that you
know i kept reading it going i don't
know if i'm the right guy for this
because it is
you know because i'm recasting it in my
head and
i um
21:25
but it is spradled legs arms behind his
back um his stance the way his
silhouette was his type of stride the
way his boots would sound how he held
himself how straight his back was how
strong and lean and weathered his hands
were lean not not big old sausage hat a
lot of laboring hands are very thick
i was like okay well i got those weird
hands so
yeah it was your walk for me like those
big expanse shots with the
mountains which i'm finding out was
actually new zealand
21:58
shots of you walking there's that one
particular shot where you're walking
through cattle and kind of you're almost
like moses you're like parting away your
walk is so different it's incredible
it's the saddle
saddle saw stride and
you know he he
there's also something that's very him
about it it's not just oh this guy's got
off the stand being on a horse for 12
hours it's like well it's also phil
burbank and so
it is it is that thing of having a wider
strike the chats helps amazingly that's
when it becomes the outside in is the
22:27
minute you have a costume fitting and uh
cassidy was in our costume zone was
fantastic and i really thought for those
overalls the bibs because that
in in the book but everyone's like ah
they don't look heroic off i went this
is authentic i need to yeah i really
need it it looks great and she really
supported me in that and then we found
the hat through rehearsals it was just
something i literally picked up and put
on and i was quite good we went to the
house they'd actually gone it wasn't
right
it's just a bit and also i'd grown up my
beards i didn't know what they wanted um
and we kept that although in the book
22:58
obviously with time jumps you know he's
he does cut his beard every now and
again like once every four or five or
six months i think it is
um but the dirt the kind of the the
feeling of sweat and smell and stench
and blood and sinew and all of that
stuff just had to be real so i i lived
that in montana for a couple of weeks i
went ranching there with an amazing
cowboy called randy and his wife jen and
they put me up in that homestead which
is on this amazing flatland prairie um
23:30
overlooking what the local tribe called
the backbone of the world it really is
just like this mountain range just comes
out of this flat wow
and then they drove me all around the
state of montana to two different very
different wonderful um
ranches where i i experienced the
branding
and cattle herding and at the same time
constantly teaching me to rope to braid
and
you know trying to pick up on my uh
errors as a horse rider and an english
horse writer at that so um
it was it was you know i learned from
24:03
that i would love for watching men and
women who do it as a living and just the
animal in film just just really feeling
it and rolling and we there was a
movement in strikes fantastic guy worked
with us in in rehearsals but there was
more like okay what would phil be like
if we tangled him or waltzed in with his
brother which i did with jesse just to
feel
the body of the
man that i've grown up with since we
were kids in the same bedroom um you
know that very sort of odd of its time
very usual
proximity to another man of your blood
24:34
and
that was a brilliant that was jane's
idea you know to just try and shift the
focus in a very unusual way just getting
a scene on his feet be getting a
character in a very uncompromising or
odd or
not necessarily to do the story kind of
position seeing how the body responds
and
then that first day was terrifying i
just sort of i was introduced to still
jane said
which is great because it just meant i
could be him you know apologetic and
embarrassed and sort of people pleasing
i can be and cringy and you know to be
phil i just had to really part that to
25:04
the side and commit to him in all his
glory
um and she she went um okay everybody
you're gonna be working with phil um
benedict's really nice to meet him at
the end of the shoot
that's great um
and that's awesome that she encouraged
that i completely and all the other
actors were in on it as well and just
you know so we were i was in character
around everybody all day every day and
when i was on set i was whittling or i
was trying to do cigarette running with
one hand or practicing my whistling not
the tune but the sort of
25:34
louder whistle to get the dog's
attention or piece of piece of tension
and
banjo playing of course uh
and and
and that isolation that separation which
is very strong in the book i just marry
myself to that landscape and going this
is a man who stands
astride these mountains that
he leans into it it offers him sanctuary
and privacy and a reveal in the film
which is very much
what i think it is in the book as well
it's it's he brings the outside in he's
he's more comfortable inside it's it's
26:05
unnatural to him and letting in a town
situation you know but
even being inside four walls is not
natural for him hence clean around in
all that dirt and
living in that dirt before i was born
like not watching for a bit of doing
some stuff yeah i can imagine
that's an interesting thing that i
thought that going back to what you said
there about him sort of
living on the outside in yeah is the
cinematography like while you're talking
about shots of great expanse
sometimes i felt very very
claustrophobic
26:37
especially when you're looking at the
world through rose's eyes yeah
it's she's i i don't know who that
cinematographer is but
she's incredible she's got some uh lady
macbeth she's just brilliant and jane
and her
project before but they had a whole year
of establishing a language and an
understanding of that script and yet
still
despite some sort of big moments were
really nimble on the day as we had to be
especially on location because of what
they were never every other variant but
also just aesthetically going oh this
huge crane spot that we plan to
27:07
majestically do this that the others
like i was just put the camera down over
here you know
and the ability to do that to contain
that huge landscape and then also narrow
things down to make them like he said
claustrophobic and suffocating and and
also just to really examine the interior
of these characters lives and to give
that much space to
internal thought and dialogue yeah and
just let that sort of real gift of
cinema on the camera
facilitate performance was just
wonderful and it's the great thing
27:39
again you and i are often
you know giving out a lot of exposition
as we're flying around
um one sec or the other two green
screens or to each other
uh if we're lucky um to be able to sit
in that place where you're saying one
thing and
i mean other or seeing that place where
you're not saying anything that's just
on you
just you know that's the i don't know
what you feel about that for me that is
the real gift of of
working in front of a camera especially
one skilled as harry's and
with james guidance
you feel
28:10
secure
but you also feel examined do you feel
you can lose yourself
and what you're thinking will be
apparent and that's
that's just a very rich place to be as
that's it
can you talk to me about working with
cody because
that's also an incredibly interesting
relationship in the film and again very
conflicting because
you think one thing and you think that
you're kind of blossoming as a character
but really you're being manipulated but
you're the master manipulator of the
film
28:41
which is
why that ending is so shocking because
the kid gets the upper hand i mean this
is the thing it's it's a weird thing and
as i've been noticing more times i've
seen it like well
was this written in this you know how
inevitable is this it seems
there's a part of me that goes well
peter didn't know his mum was going to
give away those hides
yeah
you know he yeah he did cut off the hide
of a cow that very obviously had um
29:12
okay
it's called anthrax but
he he didn't
it was the it's the marriage of
opportunity and
preparation i guess
yeah again why it's a tragedy it's those
yeah it's going into place at the same
time at the moment where phil's rage is
so childish but sort of destructive and
out of control that yeah you repeat you
think oh right my mom is probably going
to be killed now you know yeah so phil
peter is a manifestation of
every type of masculinity that he finds
29:44
terrifying
but also offensive because i think
despite
the performative aspect of film there is
a level of that i really believe that he
has become that person has been 25 plus
he is the you know hard-assed
you know
arch man
i don't think it's just dressing up it's
real for him he lives it
um and that effeminately that lightness
that lisp all of that stuff becomes
it's just something to be swatted away
and and turn into something to amuse his
30:15
men with in a very cruel way and then
when that person comes into his life is
a real thing it's just like
he yeah he's already a place of
disbelief but
weirdly it's when he sees
peter
do the walk and be cat whistled and then
come back the same direction that he
goes
there's something i i you know he he's
missed something at peter
i think peter's peter's soul character
john i think he does grow from the boy
who cries in that first scene to the man
30:47
who who um
don't say it poison still kills him um
so we're not being able to talk about
that we haven't slept right now that's
all done
but you know he he goes he does there is
a massive marked character progression
but i think also he
he's somebody we underestimate cody
speaks very eloquently to this about how
our perception and and he had it as a
reader i had it as a reader is that
peter is ineffectual to an extent um
there's something quirky and interesting
31:20
about it you don't realize quite how
capable he is
and it really makes you feel square in
the book religion on the last few pages
of it so that it's an amazing it's a
staggering reveal around the book and it
i think it's a degree in our film where
there are more i thought very obvious
leaders but again like not being the
majestical screenwriter that that um
jane is uh
she's completely proved right people
don't guess
when um he says you don't have to do
this anymore to his drunk mother or when
he says um
oh it won't be long now phil it'll be
31:51
soon that he's talking about killing
phil or stopping him um but it's
my point is it's our misperception
of who that character is that's truly
shot and actually he's he's evolved to
being that person all the way through
the skinning of the rabbit the quick
dispatch of the injured rabbit all these
are clues some of which phil misses he
in that moment by the picnic you know he
has a picnic he then after watching him
and being surprised by how deft he is
with bringing the rabbits that he sits
down and says
well your dad got that wrong about him
being um
32:21
we wanted his dad wanted him to be more
kind more gentle
um and phil thinks that's just a
ludicrous assessment of this this boy
this this this
lily
exotic thing which he's sort of vaguely
attracted to or fascinated by i think at
that point we're rather attracted to and
he thinks that's that's just a terrible
misdiagnosis and yet he's just seen him
kill a rabbit with no control but
tenderly but like yeah
i it's it's a mismatch it's a real
misstep for me it's one moment in the
32:52
film i'm going i feel really missed the
trick there do you know what i mean he
gets yeah there's something more about
peter being content with who he is and
being confident in himself with that
walk when he comes back he doesn't
flinch uh he doesn't take a route around
the back of the tent it doesn't avoid it
he gets it when he sees throughout his
dispatch he gets it when when he's
riding the horse and he falls off the
horse and they're all saying
and i think you know but also by then
he's kind of fond of the guy but it's
such a weird dynamic that relationship
all the way through the film from being
a point of ridicule beginning to being
33:23
somebody he recruits away from the
mother he's literally got a rope like
this he's pulling and my thing about it
was when i was looking at customers just
imagining ripping the umbilical cord
away from my child it was that kind of
good task in my mind it's that it's it's
horrible yeah literally like i'm gonna
take the one thing you've got left
um of happiness and security and i'm
gonna make him mine he's gonna come to
me not you
so literally it won't quite whistle for
him like a dog and he turns from doing
some work for his mom to get his smurf
for the flowers she's trying to plant
and i take him
33:54
to the barn to sort of start to um
i wouldn't say groom because that's so
that's so heavy with connotation i don't
think that's there i think it really is
he's trying to weaponize that
relationship to destroy the mother and
yeah he's kind of bored so he wants to
see if he can turn the feet guy into
who's got something about him into a
cowboy
um
but you know the first time they go off
riding together you should you should
wonder whether he's gonna make him do
something that's gonna result in an
accident and he's gonna come back phil
back on his own and oh sorry peter
didn't make it you know
34:26
um
and
the power switch in that dynamic is just
so interesting working with cody was
just a dreamer because we were more
intimate in that relationship i was able
to be far more on the same page in a way
with cody was the one or two times like
i let my guard down as being a character
all day every day because i felt
we both needed to get that dance so
right at the end we weren't talking
about what effect we wanted to have but
we're just encouraging you actors rather
than just being a character all the time
um and we're both terrible gigglers so
34:57
we would giggle a lot in rehearsal
quite a lot in the of it probably
undermines the gravity of those moments
but
we were committed we were committed when
it was happening obviously um otherwise
it wouldn't work but
it's a very odd
confusing and
indefinable kind of dance of seduction
at the end you don't you shouldn't
really know who's leading who
so that was something we
you know cody's cody's wonderful um he's
really straight up but he's got
something profoundly mystical about him
35:28
and we both just sort of went into those
parts of ourselves
with kirsten you know i she had to
manifest a lot of it i was off camera
and torturing her for an awful lot of it
you know we didn't have any scenes
together but when she comes back well
the the scene in
yeah all of that and then and then the
dining room in our house and also
obviously when she first gets to the
ranch that sort of cold welcome
you're not my
i'm not your brother you know that
complete rejection of any intimacy
and so it begins but then the rest of it
she really had to dig deep on her own
36:04
terms because i wasn't
in her presence torturing her apart from
those sort of three encounters
and that's again a testament to her
powers and actress and she managed to
manifest that and
creates such a kind of landscape of
suffering and pain
in her in her physicality and her
behavior
it's just an extraordinary journey she
goes on um wow yeah she's incredible in
the movie amazing and she's
heartbreaking well you know jesse you
know that that we had a few moments a
few that the scene in the barn when he
comes to just suggest that like what's
36:36
up in the second one he says please we
really need you and everyone's missing
you um
and then the ride into town and him not
listening to me in in in the uh
in the restaurant let's call it a
restaurant um i'll do that but anyway so
i'm sat there in an audience watching
all these relationships playing watching
my effects on characters as well i'm
watching how they manifested
when i'm not there whether it's george's
tears on the mountaintop going i'm just
so happy not to be alone it's the most
heartbreaking line of the film for me
when when george and rosa just got
married and she surprises him with that
37:06
picnic and they do that little that
little walls on that mountain top and
it's just heartbreaking it just breaks
away
single tingles
what's the matter in this i just i'm
so happy not to be alone it's just like
wow that's all
that's it that's the secret to love
and i think
you know
it was one of the many joys of watching
the film seeing the film that i'm
nodding but the the character is
shaped and uh
i created um
37:37
so yeah that cody fantastic and kirsten
and and everyone i mean you know you
know what it's like if you play anybody
with any kind of authority or not it's
all about the people around you it's all
you are playing unless the court is
playing um
yeah right servant to the king and all
the cowards including eddie who i'd like
to honor in this chat because he passed
away the films dedicated to him
an older um polish actor who wrote a
change a couple of times and this was an
amazing sort of iconic still presence on
set um
38:08
he brought his life to i'm sorry to hear
that right i said yeah um it's a sad
loss and
yeah but everyone young and old um
they're front-end behind the camera as
well but you know that you know it's
like you can't really do that without
everyone
being on side with it and helping you
but also
help them
realize their job and do that do their
work so honestly mate i was blown away
by the film and you know knowing you as
well dude
you know you don't need me to tell you
what an amazing actor you are but it's
38:39
an incredible film and the feat and the
intricacies of this character no one
could have done that better so
congratulations mate oh dude thank you
thanks for the little master class this
morning
i appreciate it
especially especially with the book the
book adaptation aspect of it but i can't
thank you for taking the time means the
world as a friend and
you know someone who's just experienced
what you're experiencing and um
you know to share a bit of spider-man
with you and the phenomenon that that's
become um and just to watch you and work
39:12
with you in in other fair as well you
know
it's amazing to think that you're
you're almost just at the beginning
you've accomplished so much already and
thank you have you get this film and
have you and i talk about it
as friends and colleagues
my pleasure honestly i really enjoyed it
congratulations especially to everyone
involved i mean
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