The New gods of Modern Storytelling | with Ben Hatke

The New gods of Modern Storytelling | with Ben Hatke

SUBTITLE'S INFO:

Language: English

Type: Robot

Number of phrases: 2722

Number of words: 16992

Number of symbols: 73620

DOWNLOAD SUBTITLES:

DOWNLOAD AUDIO AND VIDEO:

SUBTITLES:

Subtitles generated by robot
00:00
so hello everybody i am sitting here with ben hatke ben is a best-selling author artist he is mostly known for his series zeta the space girl and also mighty jack i was introduced to his work by andrew gould whose opinion is always unfailing to me whatever he he suggests to me i immediately look at it and i found in his stories with my kids as well just of just a wonderful boisterous storytelling deep understanding of storytelling and of and of myth and a fairy tale but also
00:31
connection to science fiction just very well-rounded storytelling so if you have kids even as adults i enjoyed them reading them as adults myself so i'm really happy to be able to talk to him he has a new book coming out next month called julia's house goes home which is a third part of a series of picture books so you can also check that out and make sure to get that as as the months coming along so i'm looking forward to this conversation this is jonathan pedro welcome to the symbolic world
01:22
so ben thanks for thanks for agreeing to talk to me i was a little surprised that you agreed because you know you're kind of a big shot i guess in the in the the art world uh but i was really and i found out that that your wife at least you and your wife have watched my videos and that kind of follows me so that was a very interesting connection for me yes you were a big shot in our household apparently well i'd say apparently no but i mean like i i've often walked into the kitchen and been like oh it's jonathan joe's voice again so yeah it's funny how these things work
01:53
because it's the same when i got the zita and mighty jack books then my kids just loved them like devoured them and then then the same thing when i told them that i was going to talk to you they were like oh my dad's a big shot because he gets to talk i'll make books yeah it's just funny how it works uh and so i mean tell us a little bit about about yourself how you kind of fell into this to this world and uh and then we'll just jump in um you know um i was thinking about like well not that i'm thinking about this all the time but i was actually thinking about it
02:24
yesterday because i was making a um my dad has a youtube account now really yes he is an architect and he he just and he's an architect that um oh boy if he listens to this he he's tried to retire a few times but it never sticks right he's he's always doing he's always doing stuff and he's started a little youtube account um the frog pond school of design which has its own um backstory but it's it's interesting architectural tidbits all the videos are like three minutes and you're like what is an inglenook uh how
02:55
do we control sway in very tall buildings right um just really like like stuff like and then stories from the renaissance but um but i've been trying to like promote these because i really like him doing these videos and i was thinking like and i was writing a little bit about it and i was like and my dad of being an architect is the first person who because i i deal in story storytelling but i think a lot about words and pictures and how they dance or work together or move together tell stories um
03:27
and so like you know my own like my own legend that i tell myself about this is was with my mom who would always bring me the library because she would always she had a big um uh cloth bag that she would always fill the weeks reading um had a lot of stories read to me as a child a lot of raw doll a lot of the narnia chronicles um but the bfg was huge in our house and now i'm now reading it to my daughter but my dad always when i would ask him a question he was always much more inclined to pull he had always would
03:57
have pens and uh note cards in his in the breast pocket of his shirt and he would always like pulling out he was more comfortable explaining something through drawings um as as comfortable as with word and so that i feel like in my deep deep recesses in my brain that's where i realized like like drawing is not only something that you do for fun but it's like this incredibly powerful uh form of communication and um and then you know obviously like so many of us i i
04:29
would read the sunday funnies in the morning that are the or like no the comic strips every morning right like um and you know garfield moved to calvin and hobbes which was which was brilliant yeah calvin and hobbes moved to um uh you know a lot of the marvel stuff i i found like spider-man comics got really into that but another big one was elfquest yeah by wendy and richard peany and i would i had the great memories of riding my bike up to the book used bookstore when i was like 10 11 12 and looking through the stacks trying
05:01
to find because i didn't have the collections i would have to find oh you'd have to find the actual comics background the marvel reprints and like so there were always gaps in my knowledge of well that's not part of the story and and so also and it was the first thing that really showed me like long for that was my first experience with like long-form storytelling in in comics um yeah so you know uh comics ended up always being something that i could uh you know you get i don't know as you
05:31
grow up you get positive reinforcement with certain things whenever i made comics people enjoyed them so i made more comics um and you know i ended up um like even in college like one thing i i did quite a bit was i would always tape a sheet of 11 by 17 paper up in in our bathroom and like our shared dorm bathroom and i had this ridiculous comic that i would just keep adding to and and that's positive reinforcement too because i would hear people laughing from the bathroom yeah yeah yes now i'm
06:03
going to put more into this comic in our bathroom yeah like other people would come use it just kind of for that um yeah and then yeah and and so yeah so there's like the sort like and sort of like i'm thinking a lot about influence and stuff and there's definitely just a thread of story that runs through i don't know runs through my life even though i didn't like i didn't do art school i studied history um but then um you know when i was doing freelance um art and design after i was married um
06:34
and just starting out i was doing just a lot of like like design work like photoshop work and and illustrations for textbooks things like that and then um got to this point where i wasn't getting any better but at that point i had met um the group of artists online the flight flight guys uh um so i got i kind of got my break there was an anthology called flight where a bunch of artists of different um we all seem to have like a similar we all grown up loving the
07:04
um the studio ghibli movies yeah rocky movies and and we all kind of had a similar sensibility and at that point there wasn't much in the way of middle grade comics like young people um this was and so this is like all these guys are there's kazukishi who went on to do the amulet series like reina who does smile and all these things oh okay so the whole this whole kind of movement came out of this message board that kazoo started and this anthology of comics that we all put short stories into um simultaneously around that time we
07:37
spent a year in italy in my wife's um grandmother's house which is you know like vaca like like she had passed away but um we kind of was restoring that house in the mountains and so i spent some time uh during that time in florence um so the other the other side of that coin is i was spending a lot of time um learning to paint like like portrait and figure painting sort of a school that was you know connected to the lineage of john singer sergeant and stuff like this so um so yeah those are kind of the two sides
08:09
of that coin and then in comics just round out a kind of a story that i've let go um in comics you know um the manga comics kind of were coming in and and becoming very popular and uh jeff smith's bone i don't know if you're familiar with yeah yeah yeah yeah okay the bonus it was getting big too yeah but it was over like it had ended and scholastic picked it up and there just wasn't a lot else and made and and there were there were tr like
08:40
mostly comics were still like superhero comics and they have their own distributor like the diamond distributor but uh mainstream book publishers were like um seeing the scholastic get the money from bone and humongous stuff coming over and they're like well there's there's money in these comics and we just thought like all the flight people happened to be in that in the right space um to sign up these books um really on a song like what had i done i had done a few short stories i had done um z to the
09:12
space girl as a web comic but not a like not a reliably updating web comic like there wasn't a ton but um but they signed me up for a book because they they wanted books and um yeah and from there i just i was able to keep doing it um and yeah so now i'm making comics and picture books and pro stories and other stuff yeah well it's interesting because hearing you mention your influences and just the kind of zeitgeist around what you were doing all of a sudden it it just makes so much sense you know in terms of bone and uh
09:45
all this imagery like even when you talk about miyazaki i mean i realized how then all of a sudden it hit me that zita is really the kind of feminine character that you find in a miyazaki movie this kind of just boisterous joyful in someone who influences others too like who has this kind of magnetism that is able to to kind of attract others to to her cause you know and she anyway so so it makes a lot of sense i really it really and elfquest as well in this kind of long form um there's something about your work really when you even when you talk about
10:17
your father and this architecture side to it uh like i really feel that in the even in the page compositions you really have a sense of flow in terms of storytelling but also in terms of general composition for the pages are composed as standalone images you could almost think of them that way which is something that not a lot of comic artists are able to pull off very well the architectural element is there very it's present in the sense that the even the comic pages the way that you compose them there's a sense of unity in the the page itself and so there's this
10:48
flow of movement because it a lot of them like i was looking at them i was reading again the mighty jack series yesterday there's a flow of movement uh constant movement and especially in the jack story where it's just this it's almost like a chase story right it just kind of moves the whole time but then this ends up being composed within the pages and you feel this flow of the story in the in the composition of the the panels but also the pages themselves so that's a it bring makes it very compelling to read oh i'm i'm glad you find that because like i put i that's
11:19
something i think about a lot composition is is just like is something it grabs the hold of that that geeky fine-tuning part of your brain where you're like i can do this right i can do this better um and i think a lot about the um and the flow i think a lot about the flow of an eye through the page like you say i think a lot about the the top uh left-hand panel i i designed my pages as spreads yeah so i don't do individual pages i when i do my thumbnails i'm looking at an open page every time and i think a lot about the
11:49
top left hand panel whatever's going on the top hat left and whatever's going on the bottom right and then wiggle you across the the whole spread that way and and also just keeping like it's interesting to me i don't know if it's interesting else but like i really do um like there's so much you can do with composition and there's so much you can do that can make it even more um as with pros you can you can you can have difficult to access pros which is also very rich right or you can
12:21
have like i always admire authors like neil gaiman and c.s lewis and stuff like that who who write richly but with with simple accessible prose um the hobbit is an example the difference between the hobbit and oh gosh what's another example i i like the ryan jacques redwall books but i found them really difficult to read aloud um but then like the hobbit like even when i'm tired if if i got if i'm going to read a lot of chapter of the hobbit i'm like yeah i'm in it's fine i can it
12:53
kind of it's it flows it's beautiful but it's it's got um it's not overly complicated yeah that's what i think i want my comics to be accessible to non-comics readers right um i've noticed like uh and this is a real side but it it kind of ties in um i'm very excited for the uh marvel is doing a short series of hawkeye disney plus and i love it and it's they seem to be using a lot of the matt fraction david
13:23
asia um a series run on hawkeye to influence this show which is one of my favorite uh superhero comics uh of all and because it's because it is minimalist in its drawings but like super rich and interesting and it's um in what it's doing with with composition and there is one specific one where the dog solves a murder mystery and you're getting everything from the dog's perspective
13:53
and and so it's all symbols of what he's smelling and um it's very close to black and white like it's the color palettes way down when people are talking it's all scribbled out except for words that the dog would pick up on yeah yeah go uh yes uh clint um whatever it is and and it's it's it's a miracle that it's legible it's a miracle that you can read it it's also kind of like it's d it's hard to read like like i think it's not beginning comics readers reading but it's it's so
14:23
interesting and i like i read that when i was like oh i didn't wow i didn't know you could do that and um it's pretty brilliant uh so yeah there's something about when i think about the your pieces too i mean when i think about bone it just makes a lot of sense there's there's a sparsity of words and a lot of emphasis on character making the making the drawings also not kind of like the marble chiseled type of drawing makes makes the characters more accessible immediately because you're able to tap into caricature and to you know just having the shape of the
14:55
character be related to their their personality so you don't have to you don't have to explain it a lot you just see them and then they they catch you and then they they can enter into the action right away without having to um without having to give backstory or to to talk about you know what their motive or try to show their motivations you almost get it from the drawing itself so it creates this varsity that you're able to keep the action moving the whole time with very few words and not a few but like very sparse words and
15:26
but you follow the story completely like how much story can i tell before i get to the words um because um one of the front you know like the other other concept i think about a lot is is you know art is usually defined by its its limitations right and wonder is when um when you create something within those limitations that seems impossible so when uh that's why we're that's why we get obsessive about the soft drapery and flesh in marble sculptures right it's it's it's crystal
15:58
it's marble but but somehow they're pulling softness out of the hardness um and that's why uh that's why everybody geeked out about perspective when they finally crack perspective in um in renaissance painting like because like it's like now we've got it's a flat thing but it's got depth oh my gosh you know like that's magic there and um with comics it's like one of the challenges is that you know you've got a page and you're pressed for space and the words um
16:29
will crowd very very easily right um crowd out what and so the words and images have to be working together and one of the ways i one of the things i think about a lot is gesture like uh like um like the way we read each other's gestures and body language right body language how much how much can i tell you about what's going on with the character they don't have to say i'm angry um if if they say that then i'm not doing my job you're not making a comic right or at least it's it's it's reduced from what it could be
17:01
so one of the things like that really impressed me that i enjoyed seeing in the both stories both the zeta and the jack stories is the manner in which you play with the relationship between adventure and risk or danger and possibility you know in the mighty jack story one of the main tropes is that they built they grow this garden and this garden is like an alien garden and it is it is it is murderous like it's super dangerous and it could kill them but then out of this this kind of murderous dangerous wild
17:33
garden they're able to gather power let's say they're able to kind of get uh both power and then let's say test themselves in a way that refines their character um and so i i mean i think it's it's important to understand that to me it's something that i i found very beautiful at least for a kid's story especially in a world where kids are just inside all the time like we this is our world like we have a world of safety let's say where people are obsessed with safety but you seem to kind of explore this danger as also
18:04
possibility for development let's say i don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit yeah and also yeah um yeah and also it's like expanding their world right like the garden ends up being a gateway to another world and um and it's just making these kids world larger and um yeah i mean that was that was the the kind of the crux of that book and um and that
18:35
especially when also jack's also essentially a caretaker right so like he's also got this question of like it's not just me um maybe he on his own as a 14 year old kid would be like sure let's let's let's go crazy it's just me on the line right but he's got he's got maddie to look after and um so that to me that was an interesting question like where does your um responsibility uh where like that that that fuzzy space between responsibility and
19:06
i don't know engagement with the world right um and it is a good question it's not i don't think i think it's a good question for all times it's it's um yeah because even with his sister maddie who for people who don't know is autistic it kind of needs to be to be uh she needs to be watched and she needs to be taken care of you know the garden this dangerous space even for her ends up also being the place where she increases her she has a moment where she speaks because of this garden like she has these little moments where she seems
19:37
to kind of increase herself and even discover this kind of secret power secret language that she has you know to to talk with the dragon there all these little moments with maddie where you see her kind of become more as you said even though she's someone who's fragile and is maybe more in danger yeah right jack letting her go into this dangerous world is also what makes her more more as a person and i don't think there's an answer exactly where the balance is and the book you have you really do it's wonderful because you play with that because the garden at some point does
20:09
become it's so dangerous that it could basically seems like it could just destroy everything so jack has to like burn it down but then there's also a sadness which is that okay now this possibility that we had given ourselves and lily is furious with him for burning it down exactly even though it's obviously murderous when you see it like this this monster coming out of the ground like okay this is also it's also obvious that it's like it's it's a magical thing that is beyond like anything that they'll ever come across probably in their lives again so it's also like they're both
20:39
they're both right they're both i don't know at least they're both acting they're both answering that question and neither of them completely wrong i guess i don't know although lily's like lily is a little bit sneaky like she has been stealing seeds from the garden and growing her own in her basement um which is funny to me yeah exactly but so there's there's all of that in the story because there's this play also this is something that i explore a lot in my channel where you have these kind of dangerous
21:10
monsters but then some of the monsters are you could say on our side and then some of the monsters are on the other side and so there's this interplay for example with the image of the dragon who is obviously extremely dangerous but then also ends up being an ally against the the giants and the same with the goblins where the goblins are obviously very dangerous and the goblin king is a very scary character but then but then they're able to kind of turn the goblins around and they become like a like a tool to stop the giants from
21:41
the giants from taking over and then these demons whatever like it just increases right it's like these you have these i often talk about layers of monsters in the world where you have your monsters and then scary monsters and then cosmic monsters that are further up and you need to kind of be attentive to the monsters that are on your side because sometimes they're annoying and they can be a little dangerous but if you just get rid of them you're basically removing a veil and then the bigger monsters are coming for you and it's hard to it's hard for people to
22:12
think that way because we tend to how can i say this like it's it's easy to it's easy to see how people that are sometimes on the margin on on in many ways are annoying you know and so we want to kind of cut them off but we don't realize that there there's more there's more on the other side like there's bigger bigger things and stranger things let's say yeah and i like that i like to play with the idea that just because something looks monstrous doesn't make it a monster right like it doesn't make it evil doesn't make it
22:43
evil yeah yeah for me monsters are never evil like well not never i mean they're not the idea of a monster is just something wild or something undefined or something that is beyond your understanding and the way you mention it and so it's not necessarily like the cherub for me in scripture is a monster like the cherub that guards the the ark of the covenant you know um and we have the saint saint christopher who's this dog-headed saint who's like obviously a monster so we have these like holy monsters and then their gargoyles are a good example of kind of monsters on our side or holy monsters
23:14
that are not evil they're just monsters you know they're there to stop the they're there to stop evil things that are bigger monsters that would want to invade let's say the space yeah no i do i like i like my saints wild that's cool i can't i i like i did um if you poke around i forget where i posted it but if you poke around i did a saint nicholas once um that like because he's uh archers sailors uh thieves and prostitutes right yeah and i'm like oh that's a that's a that's a great combination like who is this guy
23:48
who would this guy be if if i was making the character right like and i gave him like a wizard's staff and a huge sword and a big old coat yeah well there's this the image of you see this image of saying nicholas right that slaps arius is one of the favorite memes to come out during christmas time you have a sense that saint nicholas is something of a not he's something of a defender yeah that's why he defends kids and he defends the the marginal let's say yeah um and so tell us a little bit about what the inspiration is behind some of your
24:19
stories because obviously you have this interesting mix of of a fairy tale kind of myth making with science fiction it all kind of comes together in a very seamless way yeah it's um that's the soup right like that's um the thing about that a lot um because the story i'm working on now is an underworld story and it's a little bit structurally um i had a big meeting about it and like like everybody wanted it kind of latched on to to this element where it's
24:50
structurally like they were like this isn't the kind of story where you examine the plot or the structure very closely because it's very out it's very alice in wonderland it's very dream like like there's it's not like uh it's not like a three-act structure um kind of story but but visually like i'm like doubling it's visually gonna be pretty dense and like in that way i was like doubling down on what where does all this come from and like visually it's truly the furniture of my brain and a lot of these things
25:22
he's kind of actually this kid is traveling down into this underworld he actually ends up traveling back kind of through art history in a way through human history but kind of through art so um um so anyway it was on my mind like like where where some of the stuff comes from or what kind of furniture is in my brain and it's it's a lot it's like in storytelling i like to keep a lot of things um kind of subconscious so
25:52
um and then like once you get the story down you're like oh that's where that comes from so a lot of it's just like but i think part of the job of the storyteller is always is living right like like you can't just hole up and make stories uh you have to live and experience and take in and take in and you're kind of a conduit um always always taking in and then um kind of weeding out and seeing what sticks in your own mind and then kind of digesting all of that and then telling your story
26:24
with the voice that only you have but the like like a lot of what informs your voice is is um is this is the things that have stuck have hold help that have you know managed to to stick in there and hold dear yeah one of the one of the things i tried to explain is that storytelling let's say the pattern of storytelling just come from attention you know you can understand the ancient myths or the myths that have come down to us or the bible stories or these ancient stories the reason why we we have them is
26:56
because they grab people's attention and then as they were transmitted that attention was maintained that is that there's a capacity to pay attention and so you can imagine how stories refine themselves with the tension that is those stories that are able to get keep our attention will survive the generations and those that aren't will just kind of fade away um and then even the stories themselves will end up being refined because as they kind of progress in time some things become idiosyncrasies and you have to modify them so that the story
27:27
can be remembered so you end up having these really pure stories with time that just kind of happen on their own through a process of natural selection you could call it but then you also have that in yourself which is that the things that you remember there's a reason why you remember them they're not just for sentimental reasons there's there's something about them which we're able to grab and keep your attention and so and in that laboratory in your brain or in your in your experience you know to gathers that together and to bring out stories without doing it too deliberately you know and so let's
27:59
say the heroes like the hero's journey comes out without having to plan it like where people say oh how does this fit with uh with the hero's journey let's say but if you're if you're an intuitive storyteller then that pattern will just appear almost out of it just makes sense because it's this just the things that made you care about stories in the first place yeah yeah so there are a couple threads i guess to that um i'm not trying to decide which one to go
28:31
with first one of the things uh the hero's journey stuff is is interesting but but just evolution of story is to go to the earlier point evolution of story is something um because stories stories live and they are passed down and there's there's an ev there's an interesting way that they you know evolve through time um based on because stories gain power as they're retold and but they also gain like they're also plastic right they they they're shaped
29:02
and they move as they're as they're retold and one of the things i take issue with when i sometimes i hear like you know like you know like like corporations are owning like the stories now but it's not entirely true because there's so much cosplay and fanfic and um freedom of people taking these stories and making them their own right like i'm doing my version of captain america
29:35
um and and they're like like one of my favorite um like fanfic like one of my like one of my favorite fan fiction comics that i've run across is um and it's gone now because the person stopped making it and then it got old enough that it it's now on uh the wayback machine i think you can still find it it was called steve rogers american captain and it was his it was the the because in the in the early comics he is an art student before he gets the the super soldier serum and so
30:06
and even they kind of referenced that there are a couple scenes in the marvel movies where he's sketching yeah right and so they kind of call back to that but there's this one where like there's this comic and it's like a journal comic it's like a diary comic and it's steve rogers is woken up in the modern age he thought he was going to die in that plane crash he was like this is my death and so it it picks him up and it's like okay he's this powerful guy but he's also got ptsd from war and he's also catching up on art so he's like i'm
30:36
going to make a journal comic about my experiences and it's just the most touching thing where somebody latched onto this character and humanized him so much like as a person and there's a there's one thread where he goes to a gallery show with pepper potts and they sit outside it's very human it's like there's no battles or anything in it they just sit outside talking about their lives and at one point he gets he gets kind of worked up about something and she's like that's really scary because
31:07
and you realize he's realizing in his mind he's still there's part of his mind that's still 95 pounds right yeah he doesn't realize that sitting next to pepper if he's like and then that she's going to be like you can you can you could kill with iron man yes um so so like there's a lot of people doing that and like like just taking these stories and making them their own um but then with the hero's journey um i got into this once a discussion about this um
31:37
kind of with it with like a group of onlookers about the hero's journey and stuff like that and like i don't i feel like i never quite made i feel like i have since kind of refined my point about it um i think that some of the story structure stuff that works time and again um because there are a point there is a there are valid points that like a lot of the some of the hero's journey stuff can carry some cultural baggage right um that
32:07
you know every new time can re-examine and say how much of this we want to keep but i think at a base level this idea of the structure of the hero's journey um and the way star wars plugs into it stuff like this i feel like that is a little bit like i feel like it exists the way rhyme scheme exists yeah outside of us right um you can have all these discussions about poetry but you have to admit like abba
32:38
rhyme scheme is a is a thing it's just it's just a it's a it exists whether you want it to or not and so um so you know all the um all the cultural stuff around it aside the idea of the hero starts out takes one step back takes two steps forward big big thing new status quo right like you move from status quo um like to we see we see how what the
33:08
status quo is there is the call to do something different there's the refusal of the call there's the acceptance of the call um things get worse and worse and worse until they reach a breaking point now we're in a new status quo like that's the hero's journey and it's at its like most baseline level um so i feel like like like that just that's just there and i and i get i it is exciting to me to look at that as a as a basic rhyme scheme for storytelling and realize that you don't
33:39
have to tell stories that way but it's a super basic rhyme scheme that you can know and also now that you know it what interesting things can you do with it yeah and a lot of the stories like a lot of the edgy stories or let's say the experimental stories or the more modern stories what they're doing is that they're not doing that basic story on purpose to make you notice that they're not doing the basic thing so even when you kind of go away from this you know like let's say like you said like situation problem resolution or
34:09
return to a sid another situation sometimes it doesn't mean that there's an actual resolution of the problem but a transformation and then to another state it's like and then if you look at crazy you know data type storytelling or people try to break that that that structure you notice oh you're trying to break that structure and then the structure still continues to exist because you keep trying to break it so any experimental story ends up in a way even reinforcing that pattern because you notice it as an exception you see it as something which is trying
34:40
to be different and so it just comes back to it just it just becomes like you said almost like a it's almost like the pattern of breathing it's just like how you even recognize that something is a story is because there's you know i keep i keep telling people that the world is full of facts right the world has a million amounts of facts so if you string them together and for people to remember it you it's not arbitrary the way you do that it has to have a certain pattern or else people won't even be able to recognize it as a
35:11
unit right only being able to say that's a story it's a it's it's framed with a beginning and an end right it has characters that have some kind of of con continuation inside or at least some theme or something which holds it together um or else it then it looks fragmented and and and we struggle to even remember it let's say sure sure um but i do think they're like i like i do think there are multiple there are many stories right and like so i do think like i do think that you know like these
35:42
stories that i think of as as rhyme schemes um i still have to admit that there's jazz right like there's still uh and and those kinds of experiments like you know breaking out of of you know i'm not a musical expert but breaking out whatever came before is what leads us to to jazz which uh brings in its own richness in finding i don't know in in like new patterns new new ways of doing things like i feel like the same thing happens in in mathematics and in
36:12
you know physics and stuff like this um the other thing though that called in mind with what you were saying was um another thing i've been thinking about a lot is um stories as survival information coded survival information um this is a something that um i don't know if you're familiar with uh brian mcdonald and and he's written a book called invisible inc uh he's got a podcast called the you are a storyteller podcast really good and he's like a master he's he's he's he's
36:44
masterful at talking about about story he's a great uh screenwriter and storyteller um but he talks about stories as as sort of as um at their root like you know at a fundamental like almost evolutionary level it's coded survival information you've got the libreo tar pits you can find um you know saber-toothed tiger in the tar pits or no you can find like okay you find a mammoth in the tar pits you can find a saber-toothed tire on top of the mammoth and the tar pets you don't find a person on top of that saber-toothed tiger on top of them because they have a story
37:15
about the tar pits i saw this thing go in there it didn't come out right story as simple as that um and then like and then there are certain story like the another proof of the or like example i guess of this would be like um i can say um uh the tortoise and the hair and you're like slow and steady wins the race right that it like it like and if i had if i sit down a child and i say now if you go sometimes the slower route is the better route to win the re like they're not going to remember that but if you teleport us in the hair
37:47
it's in there right and it's in there and now that you say it and they immediately are thinking so but anyway uh so so i do like to think about about that and i think about living stories as the ones that contain um i don't know not fact but truth or like like like useful um information useful what do you mean by living stories um i mean the stories that that that make it the stories that like like from a like i don't know if i i've never thought about like
38:17
like the darwinism of storytelling but i mean like i don't know the ones that the ones that keep the ones that survive yeah there's like a meta process that you talked about where it's like the story is about survival but then the fact that stories survive is also like a meta version of that this is what i was trying to point to before the idea of attention which is that like these stories survive because we tell them basically that's what it is like we we transmit them to the next generation and that's why they survive but there are there are implicit reasons why we do that that it's not arbitrary you know
38:48
the you know the the horrible sitcom you know that in the 90s that we don't even remember the name of that we don't remember it and we won't pass it on because it was just it just didn't keep our attention it wasn't good enough right it just didn't have what it takes to kind of survive whereas other stories uh do survive um so mike my question is one of the one of the things that i've been thinking about a lot is the difference between um our world which is full of entertainment stories which i appreciate obviously i like them i lived in this world but there's also a way in which
39:20
this is much different from ancient cultures that had participative story that is the um let's say the ancient greeks when they told the stories of the heroes and the the gods it was that was their heroes it was their gods it was their story so they by telling the story they were kind of participating in in the story and so one of the issues i've had right now is that we've kind of moved away from participative storytelling uh you know like the way that you would tell the iliad or or the gospel stories or histo or the story of george washington or these types of
39:51
stories that are part of us and and on the superhero stories which are completely fictional and that you can't like you can cosplay but you never really enter into the world of superman right right but but you never enter into the world of zeus either i mean like if you were a greek then zeus is your god you go to the temple you give sacrifice like you know there's a scent in which you're you're actually like if you're uh if you're a modern person you go to you know san diego comic-con right like
40:24
it's i those two things don't seem that far apart to me like the idea that like you are participating in those in the story of the greek gods but zeus is not going to turn into a bull and impregnate you right i mean like right well not you but your ancestors your ancestors me the ancient greek person is not going to like encounter zeus as a bull right and then like me as a modern person i can like
40:57
adam savage has just made a a tremendous uh mark one iron man suit and walked around um one of the cons in it right it's just it's it's glorious and it's just like yeah but he's not he's not bulletproof right it's not a working he doesn't have an actual arc reactor and but he's celebrating that and they were celebrating that i'm not sure that the distinction is that different well i would say the distinction is is binding of community
41:27
and so let's say you take zeus so zeus we celebrate zeus right we work with zeus and then zeus binds us together so we and so when we exist together right we know that we're all looking towards zeus as the thing which holds us let's say it's usually not zeus let's say athena is better because zeus is a little far off there let's say so athena binds us together and so we worship latino you know we propitiate and we do all these things we sing to her but then she is also the
41:59
guarantor of our community functioning so one of the reasons why we exist as a community because we have the same god so in the in the fictional world it's more complicated because we don't have these like so so we we kind of we kind of celebrate so we sell it let's say let's say here's a good example so let's say we go to comic-con or we go to harry potter event and we put on the thing and we do the thing and everything uh and then we go back to our normal life
42:31
and those are disconnected in terms of causality whereas in a traditional culture the let's say the influence of athena will be felt all the way into the home when the woman walks in and she lights a candle whatever they were doing like she burned some incense or something which would connect all these levels of reality together all the way down to you know like whatever ritual they were using to include an infant into society whatever so it was like it was a binding of an
43:01
actual society together where these these stories are more they're like you can kind of participate them in a very particular thing and then you kind of go back to your mundane reality i think about it maybe you have a solution to this or another way of seeing it but that's something that i've done i don't know i don't i i feel like that's not i don't know like i hear one of the things i think about a lot is that like how my lived experience is not always the same as everybody like i i see that this
43:32
could be a thing but but in my experience i just feel like i see i feel like those parallels are so close that it's not i guess like not it's tough because i feel like like so let's let's take the he-man story like let's say you you had this he-man experience you like dressed up as he-man and you wear it under your clothes as a kind of part of myself yeah and so so you had this like he-man talisman which would which would work for you in a sense that would also probably remain he's um to make sure i'm i'm uh
44:10
fun-loving uh so so but the idea would be that that they would act as a talisman for you even where the the he-man investment would remind you of the values that he may uh proposed because he did like there was more there were morals at the end of every show like it was like you know you should act like this and and that oh my gosh he-man those guys knew what they were doing i i think it's great like i think it has and it works with you like it actually had almost like a liturgical effect on you like a like i i people are going to think i'm
44:40
being uh heritage but almost like a sacramental effect on you like you wore the thing it formed your values and made you part of the person you are et cetera et cetera um and so but now it and so the question is does it scale like to me that's the question like this is why i struggle with these fictional stories and so it works to a certain extent but does it scale like can it bind your family together like can he-man bind your family together like can he-man bind a community
45:11
together like hold it in in a like is there like would you initiate your children into he-man maybe you would i don't know like i i don't know i just i feel like um one of my one of my friends who who um who loves he-man more than i do uh went to to powercon right this is a huge he-man gathering he went to powercon and he met uh the guy who voiced man at arms and and and man adam
45:43
said like he said something very beautiful to him in the man-at-arms voice and the guy like my friend was like you know tears were in my eyes it's like it's amazing it's like a revelation like a little apocalyptic but i see this i see this with stories i feel like um to say that these stories are i don't know lesser or silly or uh not as not as important it makes me nervous like yeah because i because i because in my life i have seen
46:17
people um so affected by story and and so able to come together with i owe my whole life to it honestly like like finding my my group online these flight artists who we all ended up going on and telling the same kinds of stories like like diving into to this um that shaped and formed my life and and like i treasure the moments that we get to see each other in in in events and things and i and i see other people doing this whether it's the cosplay community or
46:48
um and and like it's in it i can only see the parallels honestly because like like you go you go to new york comic con and they're they are selling you things right like and and that's gross maybe but maybe it's not maybe but i mean they were selling you stuff at temples too like they were selling those dubs that you sacrifice right um there's always people making a buck off it um so i don't know and and like now i see um my my youngest daughter ronia um
47:20
she really latched onto the mandalorian series it was really beautiful it was really good and it was like that's a whole nother one for me um the i kind of wish she never took off the helmet because it allows you spiderman is like this um which is why i like like which white like i cried at the spider-verse at every time because they've taken all the all the responsibility lessons and all the self-sacrificial lessons from spider-man
47:51
and finally said like you could be under the mask it could be yeah i've talked about that before which i when i talked about it in the sense that it's like it really is the desire for religion but it's like a weird version of it like it's a it's like it's basically saying you could be you know you can you can kind of live in christ or you could live you know you can manifest this in the world but it's but it's it's weird because it's like no i mean not really right i mean you can't you're
48:23
not spider-man right but or you can't like can you i don't know like i mean flip the question i'm struggling to see how how uh how how that works the other direction like how it works so the other the way it works the other direction is that for example you can imitate or you can you can imitate christ because christ basically self-sacrificed himself and that you can imitate spider-man the same way though by sacrificing yourself
48:57
yeah amazing what i may tell spider-man he's like sometimes like like a hero what did she say she's like heroes i believe in there's a hero in all of us there's like something that makes us noble keeps us brave yeah i think that's true for sure sacrifices and then it says and sometimes it means giving up the thing you want most even your dreams and that that i i'm still a real sucker for the defining a hero by what he wants and then not giving it to them yeah yeah that's i mean i think that for sure
49:29
in spider-man that's definitely a powerful thing about him which is that spider-man is always sacrificing that that's his story he's always not getting what he would like to have and he has to sacrifice that to a higher order right and that's like and that's where that yeah i just i don't see you don't see the difference i don't see the difference completely no i i mean i see how it's beautifully human and i i see that spider-man is um a person given great power
50:00
but we all are in some sense um i find those i find that i find those stories honestly also a lot about um about puberty really like yeah for sure yeah times when when you change and you become stronger um men and women happens in different ways and same ways in some ways but um because you just physically get larger you get to the point where you um whoever you are you've got to explore that in the tantrum now you are a danger to your parent yeah yeah yeah you
50:33
explore that a little bit in the jack series you get a sense that that's kind of what's going on with jack as well like that in that transition spot there and then they ha and he has that like he has that like i feel like zeta zetas um yeah like i like to have characters who like have flaws but they're always going to be part they can control them right they learn to control their flaws but they're not like over it right like zita's whole deal is like her stories start because she has a little bit of an impulse control problem
51:03
right like if you give her a button she's gonna push it like she can't not um and she probably gets that under control but it's still her first impulse right uh jack's one of jack's impulses is to control the situation when i'm gonna do this he's like i'm going to force you not to and um that's one of the points where things kind of go bad for him any and he does it in the next book too it's like he doesn't quite get over that um but i just i but those are
51:34
like all those values i guess i guess i feel like this idea that like oh some of the christian values are of of sacrifice and and all these things are bubbling up in in pop in in maine current stories right currently told stories but i also feel like i don't know what's specifically christian about those values because i i found them in in superman and he-man and spider-man and they just seem like human values right they they say and i don't know how the other story is
52:06
more how how is it fundamentally different well if you look at i mean if you look at ancient uh epochs for example like the the theme of self-sacrifice at least the way that it's presented in the christian story is not really there it's maybe hinted at it's it's sometimes there's something which could maybe be around it but if you think of achilles for example i always give this example it's like achilles in the iliad is brooding in his tent and doesn't want to participate in the battle because they
52:36
took his sex slave away from him sure and and he goes back into battle when they kill his friend and it's like all right now it's time to have revenge over my friend because because he was killed and he goes overboard and there's all this going on uh and you see the same with the like you know hercules is a hero but he also slaughters his children like there's a sense in which the the heroes of the ancient world are these terrible kind of figures that are extremely powerful and that you have to fear and kind of uh you know you kind of have to
53:08
be careful of uh whereas the hero the christian hero which becomes exemplified in the night is the hero that has power which he gives to those that don't have power and that's basically the basic structure of the hero since the advent of the christian story and and it's so sort of the less powerful yeah exactly and so that becomes like a just a trope and then so you see it in he-man you see it in superman you see it in every basically every popular story because it has it's been a major transformation like
53:40
it's a major transformation the way we understand what even hierarchy is like what the purpose of having these people above us is is that they're there to love that which is below right the purpose the purpose of the leaders is not to just clamp down on us and and and control us but is to give back and to kind of to give themselves for for those that follow them so that's that to me that's like the major christian difference between ancient stories and and stories even you find hints of that in buddhism like
54:10
there isn't a sense in the idea of the bodhisattvas who who refuse nirvana in order to help those that that are still in the world and so it's like yeah that's actually that's quite close to the christian story but it's not a it's something which is not it's not an obvious story it's obvious to us because we've been living in it for 2000 years but it's not that obvious in terms of ancient myth for sure okay yes that yeah grant i will grant you that definitely [Laughter]
54:40
well no i mean like like a lot of the ancient myths is like like like a lot of the christian stories the flipping of might makes right to uh you know uh the flipping of that power structure right the the mighty are there to serve the the weak right um or that that is maybe just our human calling like to to to to to serve those below us but i am still struggling to see like why there's only one story to tell that
55:12
really well no there is and it's fractally effectively wrong with telling it with spider-man right nothing wrong with it lesser uh about telling it with spider-man i think yeah once we say like well spider-man's the one that said with great power comes great responsibility so but why can't i make a character who also lives the value of with great power comes great responsibility and just like spider-man's awesome you can go to spider-man if you want but yeah but story there are many stories
55:43
and the best stories like the tortoise and the hair are true right but not factual i guess it's what is is the deal like like like there are times like you learn from the taurus and the hair you know that very often uh taking the slower methodical route gets you to the end first or if it's a race or whatever yeah uh but then like there are times in life when you want to sprint
56:15
right like or where that's the that's the correct call right uh is to just go sprint but if that story becomes too crystallized and formalized and two and and that there's a there's an act and if we look back in history there's an actual turtle that tells you you've got to take the slow and steady rate that's otherwise it's it's it's a sin right yeah and that's okay that's the story that's taking the story is true and then conflating it with fact yeah right yeah well for sure that these
56:48
ancient stories are they're how can i say this they're more organic than that like they don't they don't like you said the more that's why in a lot of these ancient tropes ancient stories sometimes you'll find uh you'll find uh like adages that are actually the opposite of each other sure and those it coexists together right because it's like uh you know you say uh you know is it far from i forget sorry i'm french so it's like i don't have the attitude i think it's far from hard far from mine is that it is that an adage in english
57:19
oh uh okay i can see that right so you can say absence makes the heart grow fonder and then you say far from hard far from mine yeah they're different yeah right okay so it's like it's actually two opposites so it's like if you're far away from something it makes you forget it if you're far away from it it makes your heart grow fonder for it right they're actually both true but they but like you said you don't want you don't want like it to turn into a rule system oh out of sight out of mind out of sight out of mind sorry like sorry i i just i don't i'm i'm french people i was like i know it's in there
57:49
yeah yeah um anyways but to come back to the idea of of uh to me it's all about participation like i said that's why i don't see it like you don't have to see it as a pose i think that there's a way in which these let's say the christian story bubbles down like bubbles up and kind of fills up and manifests itself in all these these different stories and that's great it's actually wonderful that that happens um but there's also a way in which like i said that i mean i i see when you say go to comic con and everything i get it like there's something it's not
58:21
nothing but it's not it's not about the mandalorian i don't mean to interrupt you but yeah go ahead but i feel like i'm gonna forget this i feel like watching my daughter my little daughter um she's 10 and she she latched on the mandalorian and now she's got a helmet and we're like making her some vestgar armor and we all as a family enjoyed watching this series together like like like as a as an event and then now she plays mandalorian in in the yard with a friend and you know like
58:52
they've got and they build it out of legos they build little worlds little mando worlds out of legos and then also when we if you play that opening theme that music that goes along with it like it's just one of those things where we're all there right you can blast that through the house and it's just like it's not it's real like yeah i'm not questioning it it's not quite as formally ritualized but on the other hand it's young yeah but it's also not like i think that
59:22
it's the to me it's the like so let me paint you the other portrait right which is a village that has a church in the middle of the village and the building is actually higher than all the other buildings so when you look out your window when you're walking around you can always see the the steeple above has the point of reference for all the people in the village and then you know it like in the catholic village let's say at 12 the bell rings and then we're all at the same time in the village doing doing uh praying together we know we can't see people doing it but
59:54
we know that the entire village is praying together at the same time kind of looking towards this central space and then on sundays we kind of go into the church everybody kind of goes into the church together then people celebrate the same thing and then we move out and we go back into our homes and we and we have a fractal version of that which is that it kneels and like i said uh when the bell rings then we'll have this celebration we do together so what it does is it creates so this is the community is bound together by this common celebration and
01:00:25
so in in these fictional world which which like i said it works like in the mandalorian what happens is you have these little things that pop up but it's ultimately you because we're watching society kind of fragment so like our suburbs are just you know suburbs have no center suburbs have no place of communion right suburbs have no common goal or common project so it's like this breakdown which and it's manifesting itself in all these little little smaller versions of liturgy like
01:00:56
you said say the mandalorian or marble or star wars and all these or manga or whatever um but ultimately it's you can feel this breakdown yeah okay no i mean i've lived there so i i i will i have that village yeah i totally totally because we we we we've spent um you know all all put together um you know we'd go for it to the gravonia montale in italy this is where my my wife's family is from um and it's a little
01:01:28
little village like like i think at its height maybe like 300 people live there now it's more like 60. um less than now because it's it's very old um in the middle of it it is you know the church highest point more or less it's on a mountain slope so it's um bell rings uh san bartolomeo is the church i've you know i've marched with son bartelo mayo and his played skin okay in the procession around the town um and it's beautiful right like i i
01:01:59
totally grabbed that it was it's beautiful but and it's binding true right and and i can see that that is healthy particularly for small communities to have um um but i don't know and i and i also will like i don't know how to solve the suburb problem i i get that that's a and i apologize for this guy out here no worries he's having crazy time um but i guess my i guess my thing is like
01:02:33
like it's great that and so you would say would you say like the ancient communities with like the greek communities had something similar yeah they definitely did yeah they definitely did and i mean i think that it's a traditional trope i think for sure the difference is that let's say in a roman or greek community you had that pattern but it was it didn't have the it didn't necessarily have the love part as this aspect that we talked about which is that at least ideally there's a sense
01:03:04
in which the father is also there to help his children right it's like it was a more hierarchical thing where the household would just submit to the father and it was which is something which exists in the traditional christian world as well but at least in the story and in the ideal there's a sense in which there's a there's a top-down thing kind of coming down as well and so i think it's a totally it's a universally traditional system uh it just the difference is in my opinion in in the in the christian story you have a balance between
01:03:34
this kind of top-down structure and right the idea of how the the lesser all the smaller people are are the hero image that we talked about the idea of the person above giving themselves for that for those for those that follow him and all that kind of stuff yeah uh-huh but it is a universal pattern it's not it's not just a christian one that's that's a that's 100 sure which which part's a universal pattern that that the idea of binding ritual like the idea of a ritual of celebrating you know of sacrificing
01:04:05
uh you know all of these gestures that we pose to kind of connect ourselves with something higher and then bind ourselves to those that are around us okay so were the greeks in their rituals were they like were they more closer to what you'd say like like the mandalorian or marvel cinematic universe or something like that what do you mean well he keeps saying like well it's different with these fictional stories yeah right were the greeks operating under a fictional story no i don't think
01:04:36
so okay so they asked me if i think the gods exist yes i think that gods exist and zeus zeus included i think zeus exists of course the gods i think i'm on a neil gaiman side with that i think all the gods exist sorry i guess you didn't expect that but no this is super interesting like like how do like how in what way maybe we're not understanding this maybe we don't know the maybe we're not using the same exist in the same way i don't know how do you use the word
01:05:08
exist uh well i mean are you saying they exist in the way that an idea exists they exist in a way multiplicity becomes one like they exist in a way that they're that they are uh principalities that manage uh bodies that manage that manage aspects of reality hmm like you're a little bit beyond me i'm not exactly sure what you're saying so i'm totally interested though i'm not
01:05:40
i'm not i i am interested i'm just i'm just i'm struggling this is like this is like the worst thing to start into like an hour and a half into our discussion but not the he-man stuff that's right we can drop the humans um so so in that so think of it like um okay so let's say a city right right and so is it does the city exist sure right but it's but it's also i mean where like it's a it's a very it's a very fluid thing like
01:06:12
it's a body right it's a exists material it exists as an event as well right but it's so you can be it you can for example be a new yorker but still like be in miami for example like you could you could you could participate in new york but while physically being in miami yeah yeah all right so it exists so the way it exists is complicated it's not a simple thing so it exists under something like a principality right in scripture there's that the idea it's like the angel there's an angel of a city and it's a and it's a it's a it's
01:06:44
it's a being just like you have a bunch of stuff in you like you your body and your body extends even into your books and into your the things you say online and the you know the the notes that you've written right it's like your body is a lot bigger than what we think when we think of you just as this guy that is there let's say that i could you know they could touch or that's right in front of me right you actually you're but your being extends beyond that it's not it's not as contained as sometimes we think and so the way that you like
01:07:16
that there's a part of you or an aspect of you which is one it's like your spirit your soul like whatever word you want to use the pattern which unites all this multiplicity that makes it recognizable that exists at different levels of reality it just just doesn't exist for people it exists for for cities for exist for passions which is why we say they're demons like the demon of lust or the demon of this like it's a coherent body which is managed by a pattern which is
01:07:47
what do you mean which makes you recognize it is a way to understand that can a demon affect the material world of course but not not materially not materially not directly yeah just like your thoughts can affect the material world too not clearly like your will can affect can affect the world you just just not materially your will doesn't affect it directly so you you can so you can you can have spiritual action at a distance right you
01:08:18
can ask your wife to bring you a cup of coffee and if she does then you're affecting the physical world through meaning through spirit right hmm that's that's a lot that's a lot to chew on all right sorry can i ask another question like what about like so okay so zeus in some sense exists could there be a new one could there be new gods that will exist well they wouldn't be new they would they would they would they could they could their bodies could
01:08:52
appear in time that's for sure so like so like oh so we discovered new gods that always did exist well that not always the word always is complicated because it implies how can i say this it's like you could say that all things exist eternally in the mind of god is the best way to understand that and then they manifest themselves in time and space but that they they obviously all of them have an eternal like a non-space non-time existence so so of course they could be
01:09:23
they but i would say it may be yes and no like it's complicated like of course all so there's a theory like a thomistic theory and it's a it's a theory that a lot of ancient christians accepted which is that it's every time there's a communion between between beings there's an angel so there's myriads and myriads of angels like you know every time like there's an angel for our conversation because the because our conversation is more than the sum of its parts are there angels for our tangents
01:09:55
what do you mean by our tangents is there an angel for the he-man part of our conversation and an angel for the uh the uh like is there an angel of he-man no no it's like you say there is an angel for our conversation for the communion for the fact that we're that we're coming together like the union of multiplicity into one so as soon as multiplicity kind of joins and you can recognize something but they're just angels they're what are they distinct yeah they're distinct angels they don't necessarily have another podcast is that
01:10:26
a different angel or is that the same angel coming back for the next podcast the next location where we doubled down on all this stuff um it'd be interesting it'd be interesting to think i don't know where's that that's a that's a that's an idea that doesn't really have an end no it doesn't i mean that's why it's like there's that's why the i'm not saying that this is necessarily the best way to kind of understand reality but it's definitely a one which ancient christians have have thought have have accepted not just integration like even you know like it's it's a even in
01:10:57
hinduism you have this kind of idea right that there are myriads and myriads of of principalities okay but it's the problem it's a problem of complexity like it's it's not it's not a religious problem it's it's a problem of how we're able to perceive unity in multiplicity because it's like you think it's obvious that that you have a bunch of stuff in front of you and all of a sudden you see it as one thing it's like why are you seeing it as one thing it's not one thing it's a bunch of things and that bunch of things also has
01:11:28
another bunch of things at a lower level right it's a stacking up a bunch of things but then somehow you're able to perceive one so how is it that you're this one where is it right so that's that's the that's the ontological problem that these questions are trying to propose it's not a it's not a it's not a new it's not a new philosophical or physics problem right where does one thing and the other thing begin like but i mean like i don't know i've been reading a ton of physics and
01:11:59
and it is it gets slipperier and slipperier the more you look at stuff and that that i can that i can get on board with yeah and and i do like like the idea that the edges of things the reality is granular and the edges of things are are kind of fuzzy yeah they have margins and they're they're like the corners of the fields right that you need to leave until they're the or the the fringe on the vestment the fringe of the garment there's a there's a messiness on the border sure sure sure but i'm i don't know i just i can't
01:12:31
i struggle with with with talking about principalities in angels as in that sense as being useful for understanding it like at least it's not the most useful thing in my toolbox currently mental toolbox i guess i'll say that it's like i'm not i'm not going there it's it's like you're coming up with some interesting stuff but i'm struggling to get it i guess yeah that's okay i mean it's not i didn't expect us to go in
01:13:02
this direction anyways in this conversation i'm like i kind of drew kind of pulled you into uh into uh into a world of a world that's difficult it's not the way that modern people think let's say uh but it's definitely it's something that is it's coming up in the problem of complexity and the problem of uh problem of emergence like how is it that these how do these phenomena coagulate into one right how is it that quantum fields stack up so that you can say
01:13:32
you know it's like you can say that's ben it's like that's a pretty intense it's a pretty intense thing that i can notice you that you have unity because you you're you're you're a bunch of stuff not just a bunch of stuff in space but a bunch of stuff in time the fact that these join together into one being is something which is difficult to account for unless you have something like a platonic structure like uh it doesn't it skills that exist outside
01:14:03
of everything they the one true apple right but it's not in in that's why in the christian vision or at least in the orthodox vision it's not that simple it's like it's not just that the apple the form of the apple exists outside the apples it's that it exists within all the apples and the apples exist within it it's not a it's not a it's not disincarnated it's an incarnated uh metaphysics you could say so it's not like there's a world of the forms of apples right and then there are the particular apples it's that this is actually
01:14:34
this is it's an incarnate reality but the form of the apples are you could say hiding in the apples and the apples are in the form so that you're able to perceive the apples as a discreet thing it's like sorry i feel like i feel like this is going like way off to the kind of thing but let me let me let me kind of let me rope it back into the yeah all right talk about the storytelling well i'm talking about i'm i'm thinking like the one
01:15:05
i guess i get nervous when when all of it leads to there being one true story which is also definitively historical and therefore has primacy over every other story like the story of jesus relegates that relegates all the other stories to being glimmers of the one true story and that is an idea that i have grown uncomfortable with yeah yeah but there's another way to present it which is not which is not necessarily
01:15:37
all the idea that they're just glimmers but that there's a how can i say this there's like a fractal reality which is that reality is full of let's say the story of logos right right but that's the logo so logos the whole thing you're giving a fractal reality a center yeah that you mean the fact that it that that the story of jesus like encapsulates let's say all these stories together and then by definition has to be factual
01:16:06
in a way that the story of zeus is not historical um i mean was do you mean you mean that it's that well zeus was it was is not embodied in the swamp i don't know take it i why am i on a zeus kick today that's so weird yeah but any one of the people who was uh who zeus dres like turned into animal zeus and and got pregnant yeah today um why are we talking about all of zeus's rapes that's what you're wondering yeah yeah yeah it's a
01:16:43
interesting psychological question going on here um but did that happen like is like so you could say that it didn't happen in the same way that we say that the story happened george washington crosses the delaware or awake what's uh the signing of declaration of independence right and so so there's a hierarchy of events in the world and and they don't necessarily happen at the same level you know and some of them have more intensity and more brightness and some of them are less incarnate also as well you could say um and so for sure the way
01:17:15
that the way that zeus impregnated his different uh ladies is not the same way that we talk about the resurrection let's say or that we talk about the story of christ but to say that it didn't happen i think do we talk about the resurrection of christ in a similar way to the signing of the no i hope not i hope nobody does that like because it's it's obviously not at the same level it's a different level it's hinted at in the scripture right closer to the zeus level than to the i mean the idea would be that it's a it's
01:17:46
a kind of it's a place where it all comes together and so in a way it is something that happened but something which is beyond description at the same time but it's not a it's not a it's not a fable at least no christians believe that it was a fable like that it was something that happened in uh in the more subtle way let's say so a lot of the a lot of the old stories are more subtle like they have they don't have they're they seem to be happening at the psychic level or seem to be happening at the like the
01:18:17
a psychic level of the virgin of a community like something like that like you know how you have ideas and imaginations and so the day a community can have that as well and so a lot of these stories seem to happen at that level uh and so they're not exactly the same as um as i say the stories about jesus okay so but story okay so yeah those stories are happening at more of a psychic level which is different from the story of jesus was it happening at a more psychic level
01:18:50
than say uh ford making the first um uh uh team model t i don't know yeah you're trying to find something that is historical well we're on it we're on a we're on a we seem to be on a um on a on a there seems to be like uh uh what do you would call it a conte continuum of some kind of types of events yes so like like we have like the more psychic events which
01:19:21
are like like zeus we have more historical events like like the the first light bulb um things that you can like point to you have you know and then we have like where where on this continuum is say the resurrection i don't the resurrection is is very singular because it's presented as both an event which obviously happened in a way that people could recognize it as happening like it's happening in the world but it also points it's it's it's difficult to contain because the
01:19:52
disciples don't recognize jesus they don't recognize him and then they do when he reveals himself and so it's a very it's very mysterious i think it's made to be mysterious it's made to be mysterious on purpose so that you don't think that it's it's as mundane as you know you cutting your fingernails uh but that it's also not something which is imaginary or a fable but that it somehow is a place where all of this kind of comes together
01:20:24
and that's why it's got primacy and we can toss out zeus but not that we don't have to toss out zeus like i mean we don't worship zeus but people remember the story of zeus right about things that bring communities together it does not have to be it does not have to be athena yeah well the the stories of the greek gods ended up participating in the margins of christian civilization like they were remembered and they were they were remembered and uh copied and celebrated as lower on the hierarchy of things let's
01:20:54
say to remember but they weren't forgotten like there were statues of the greek heroes and constantinople of the roman heroes and greek heroes and constantinople like they were you know they were just part of society but then the norse myths are alive and well now with thor being in the marvel universe yeah so it's like so i get like that but that's that's more of the the evolution of story like that's that's an organic i don't know uh like stories in time growing changing being adopted by different people for
01:21:25
different reasons and different ways um yeah but there are ways like i mean be interesting to look at it because there are ways in which the story of the story of jesus let's say just the actual story of jesus that it takes storytelling to its limit and so it's very difficult it's very difficult sometimes to go to think imagine how you could go beyond some of the stories that are told today in this story that they did sorry go ahead no go ahead you go ahead i'm sorry i'm i'm i i get excited and i
01:21:57
interrupted it so like the story of the of the descendants of the underworld is a good example that i like to use which is that the descendant of the underworld is like a universal story you see it in every in every culture it's always there like there are versions of it different aspects of it and you go down to visit to get some wisdom you go down to save someone you succeed or you don't succeed uh you know and so you see it in all the in the epics and you see it in the the different myths and so so now jesus has a virgin which is to go down into the underworld
01:22:28
and then he goes down into death and then he takes everybody out and then he destroys death and so that's like that's the end of that story so it's not like i mean you can participate you can have other versions of it still like it still kind of fractally will continue to manifest itself but it's reached the limit of storytelling which is that that story of the descent into the underworld has has kind of reached its yeah like their death is abolished
01:23:00
so [Music] so i mean it's like you could say why did why is it that they're the ones who thought of telling that version like i mean you could kind of find that but if that's the one if that's the one true best ultimate version of that story the fullness of the underworld story as me sitting here i have two questions that's the firs so first question number one with that being the fullness
01:23:30
of the underworld story um i i sit here today with the book on my desk is writing an underworld story yeah that that i feel that that marginalizes my underworld story a little bit but like why would i why would i the best has already been done all i can do is be a glimmer or a fractal reflection of that story right but that's not like the idea of being a fractal reflection of the ultimate story is something that it's that's always what we've been doing it's
01:24:00
not like it's not it's not like this is this was always what's been going on like it's always been a fractal reflection of some story which we recognize and then we're kind of participating in and we're showing different sides of and and so and then everybody can kind of see that this is this is connecting us to something which we can't totally describe or that stirs us in a way that we can't completely exhaust um but that continues to be true because because because it's because of the point let's say where that story
01:24:32
comes together has been has happened uh it doesn't mean that there isn't this like joy of participating in it i don't know i mean i it doesn't it doesn't affect me like i i would still tell an underworld story because dante still told an underworld story and it was one of the best underworld stories to ever to ever happen but it didn't reach the limit let's say of the of the of the story of christ like it didn't it actually participates in it because it even in dante's story you you get this sense of how
01:25:03
all of this is going it's been transformed by that event and how it's also even more interesting hints about how yeah anyways i won't go into that but yeah sorry okay so what about um this sounds sincere like i'm having a hard time figuring out where the the line is between and then you're the way the way the way we're talking about now is it um takes a lot of thought um but i i have i have this idea like
01:25:34
do you think if you could see the historical christ jesus of nazareth will say um and find that this is a historical person and could could view that history or travel back to that history would you think you would be disappointed um because and the reason i'm asking can i just just go ahead and flush out that question my other totem that i have here with me so i had prince adam i also have uh robin hood yeah
01:26:06
who i love and uh my daughter angelica gave me this uh plastic disney robin hood because i love disney's robin hood uh right but you know like robin hood's hard to figure out where it all came from but you know they're it's possible that they're they're like a couple um like early early medieval contenders for maybe the origin of the robin hood story i feel like if i went back and met one of those guys with you know disney's beautiful fox robin hood with errol flynn with um the
01:26:37
many other versions in my mind it would be nothing short of a disappointment yeah i think you're right but i think that's part of the story it's actually in the jesus story what you're saying and in the jesus story is people being disappointed in jesus and not him not seeming to be what they expected him to be and so your your the way you think about it is completely right but it's contained in the story so there's a sense in which the logos is hidden in his manifestation and the
01:27:09
fruits of that of his hiddenness appear as the story continues to unfurl and so when when christ resurrects that you know or when the when there's uh uh at um when they receive the holy spirit you you get a sense that all of a sudden now they see all these little aspects of his story and they're able to connect them in a way that at the time they were too blind to kind of see but i think you're right i think that probably if i if i was there especially without
01:27:40
the knowledge that i have now i would probably be one of those people that didn't recognize the messiah because because he because yeah that's exactly how the story is actually told interesting that's good though this is all very interesting stuff um we should probably we should probably go i mean it'd be nice to have another conversation because it's like i have run out of questions you run out of questions well listen i i i'm sorry i took you on this crazy this i didn't expect it to gonna go in this direction
01:28:14
no pride it was a wild ride so thank you thank you for your time and thank you especially for your your books and uh and once again i want to encourage people to to especially if you have kids that are you know kind of middle school age even from like i mean younger is fine too and even in your in for adults as well like they're just really great stories and uh very positive and very boisterous great characters so i really appreciate what you did what you've done and i'm happy to uh i'm happy that you were willing to talk to me oh thank you so much it was it was
01:28:45
a pleasure all right and also maybe remind people of the upcoming book julia julia's house goes up really quick this is kind of my job to plug this book i feel so yeah you have to you have to plug the book julia's house goes home i had a blast um particularly illustrating this one with my watercolors so i'm happy with the story and and it's a i feel like it it ended well enough so and and and ben think about all the things you talked about let them all over i'll also think because you really
01:29:17
provoked me more than a lot of people in terms of the picture story and it's like i've been just saying this and now you're like oh i'm pushing here so i'll think about it as well and maybe we'll have another conversation at some point maybe we will thank you so much all right it's good to meet you i want to present you a new series of graphic novels called god's dog god's dog is a very loose and epic exploration of the legend of the dog-headed warrior saint christopher one of the most surprising and peculiar traditions of the ancient medieval world
01:29:49
it was written as a screenplay by myself and my brother mature over 10 years ago and the story was taken up and even recommended by script scouting agency it was requested by several hollywood studios but this story was of course too big too strange too surprising for hollywood and so now with all the control of its potential we bring you this groundbreaking story the full color as a series of graphic novels the story is set in a token style mythical version of the biblical world
01:30:20
filled with hidden codes ancient relics angels giants dragons and populated with fictional virgins of mysterious monks warrior saints and more symbolism than you can imagine god's dog contains all the intensity and subtlety of our symbolic thinking the world class layouts and artwork of cord nielsen all of this bound in a mysterious and powerful story arc which is available to all from wide-eyed 10 year olds to the most
01:30:51
seasoned of readers the entire story with all its action and complexity is already completely worked out and the first book is near completion now all we need to do is deliver it to you we're crowdfunding this because it is only the first step we've already been contacted by even international publishers for this but we want to knock this out of the park so that our artists can do this full time and deliver the oncoming books at a
01:31:22
regular and steady pace under our control i myself will personally not be taking any profit from this first book but rather i want to use this to build what we need to tell this full epic with all its cosmic proportions so along with a graphic novel we are also producing a crowdfunding only add-on the secrets of god's dog source book a beautiful volume in which you will find my original drawings for more than 10 years ago an exploration of the
01:31:52
symbolism of saint christopher and an exclusive text by matsuya pejo on the symbolism of the biblical samson this is the first thing that methio has published since his groundbreaking book the language of creation so jump into the margins with us be part of this shift in storytelling where the end becomes the beginning and where the monster carries the king into a new world

DOWNLOAD SUBTITLES: