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00:00
hello upgraders and welcome to another
edition of the upgrade ape show I'm your
host well Baron and today's show we have
Sam Vaknin
who is an expert on gnosis Psychopaths
and has been diagnosed with both
conditions absolutely fascinating talk
Sam's an absolute wealth of knowledge in
this area and we're talking about how
you can recognize narcissist and
psychopaths in the workplace and then
what you can then go on to do to one
stop them bullying or manipulating you
00:31
and to perhaps manage them better if
you're a manager or how to survive
working underneath them what fascinated
me about all this is that the literature
suggests that 1% of people in the
Western world are either nauseous or
Psychopaths
however most Psychopaths for example
don't know that they're a psychopath
because they think that they're fine
think that they're great
so that 1% is actually a tiny amount
that's very likely that you have friends
or family or colleagues that are
narcissists or Psychopaths and all this
01:03
is on a sliding scale from you know
Hannibal Lecter to the boss who likes
attention and who is stealing credit for
your work
so that's something to bear in mind and
some is the editor of mental health
disorders in the open directory project
he's got a book out malignant self-love
and his work has been featured on mental
health matters mental health century
mental health today mental health review
a loads of other websites and
publications so just before we get into
the show exciting news in that you can
now download or graded a magazine
01:35
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02:07
today's show welcome to the up gradients
your daily dose of brain upgrades to
help you kick life's ass and use your
homes will very high some and welcome to
they've created a show thank you for
everything you are more than welcome and
today we're going to dive into the
fascinating world of narcissism and
Psychopaths and just before we dive into
that and we're going to talk about in
the context of the workplace can you
tell us a definition of what a
02:38
narcissist and a psychopath is just for
listeners to clarify what we're going to
talk about the distinction between
narcissists and Psychopaths has
gradually become more and more blurred
and today it is thought that a
psychopath may be simply an extreme form
of narcissus Psychopaths are more prone
to anti antisocial behavior including
criminal conduct they are less empathic
than narcissists if at all possible they
03:08
are more centered on their benefits on
non tangible benefits that they may
derive from people and from situations
anything from sexual favors to money to
the accumulation of power to the
exercise of power cetera et cetera
psychopaths are also a bit more in a
more Deb it's a bit more addicted to
inflicting pain on other people they
find it pleasurable and some of them
even find it funny narcissists are a
mellowed version of a psychopath they
03:41
also lack empathy they are exploitative
but they are addicted to input from
other people input which we call
narcissistic supply which essentially is
attention whether positive or negative
narcissus of course prefer admiration
and adulation to notoriety but if they
cannot obtain the positive kind of
attention then they would definitely go
for the negative kind of attention
so while psychopaths are stand alone
units they are totally autonomous and
they are not reliant nor are they
04:11
dependent on anyone for anything
narcissists are narcissists are addicted
to narcissistic supply and therefore
they are addicted to the input provided
by people
around them they go and solicit this
input actively and sometimes forcefully
so these are the distinction between the
two types but both of them are callous
ruthless this empathic emotionless and
pretty terrifying okay well before we
04:45
dive into how to spot these people and
whether that whether it's good or bad
and the sliding scale of how
narcissistic and how psychopathic you
can be you just tell some little bit how
you got involved in this world in the
first place well I've been diagnosed
with both I'm a narcissist and a
psychopath and having confronted my own
diagnosis multiple-- I've decided to
delve into the into the issue and in
1997 when I started my magneri 5
05:16
actually when I started my work on on
these topics
it was personality disorders in general
and narcissistic and antisocial
personality disorders in particular
we're an obscure and neglected sub sub
sub field of expertise among a very
limited set of scholars novices and
Psychopaths are very hateful and
difficult patients they do not yield to
Authority nor do they improve with
05:47
treatment so they are very disappointing
in resilient subjects both for study and
for therapy and so psychiatrists
psychologists and therapists tend to
avoid narcissist and Psychopaths 1995
there has been nothing absolutely
nothing written about this disorder with
the exception of one of the books and so
I had I had to do you know I have to
start everything from scratch and I've
spent the last 20 years studying both
06:18
disorders coming up with a vocabulary
that is widely used today actually and
suggesting insights some of them
accepted some of them rejected with
regards to these two afflictions I've
written several books the most
well-known of which I believe is
malignant
sloth narcissism revisited but I've
written other books as well about
personality disorders and I have
correspondent and observed thousands of
narcissus people diagnosed officially
06:48
with narcissistic personality disorder
and with hundreds of thousands so family
members neighbors colleagues bosses
co-workers you name it now I know I
probably have it would be safe to say
that I have the largest database with
regards to these aliens among us
sure-sure lost fascinating some and one
question that comes to my mind listening
back to you then was how and why did you
07:19
go to get a formal diagnosis in the
first place is this something that you'd
notice the traits of narcissism
psychopathy in yourself or someone else
mentioned them to you I've been coerced
twice into into evaluation once by my
then fiance who had the wits and
intelligence to bail out and second time
in prison I did time for securities
fraud and as a condition for parole I
07:49
was I had to commit myself to
psychiatric evaluation so on both
occasions the verdict of narcissistic
personality disorder was rendered in
conjunction with one or two other
personality disorders and in about four
or five years ago I participated in a
documentary titled a psychopath in which
quite publicly I was diagnosed with
psychopathy they used a test called the
08:18
PCL P CLR it is concocted by one Robert
fair and while they are there's a
serious debate about the validity of the
test for instance it is not accepted by
the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
Committee which is the body the body
over orthodoxy in psychiatry but still
it's indicative and so it would be safe
to say that I'm a psychopathic
narcissist after all these luminaries
have pored over my record and myself
multiplied
but I think earth into it is an
08:52
important question actually which of us
I've been coerced into into evaluation
and coerced into treatment and therapy
you see prior to prior to being
confronted with my diagnosis I was
completely unsafe aware I I would have
found it pretty funny as you suggested
to me that something's wrong with me
I would afford that you are dim-witted I
would have ascribed pernicious and
paranoid motives and motivations to you
for having said it for having suggested
09:24
that something's wrong with me I would
have blamed everyone and anything for my
misfortunes and defeats and and so on
and recall this whole thing a lot lastic
defense's other plastic defenses better
known as external locus of control means
simply the narcissist and Psychopaths
before they become self-aware and some
of them do I'm an example but before
they become self-aware psychopathic
narcissist and to blame everyone and
09:55
everything for the mishaps and
misfortunes and the downfalls in their
lives they can do nothing wrong nor do
they ever do anything wrong everyone
else is to blame the boss is envious of
them their co-workers are jealous of
them and undermine them no one
appreciates improperly the universe is
badly designed God is to blame society
it's to the increasing stupidity of the
populace you name it later the cabbie I
10:27
mean everyone was with one exception the
narcissist himself and this is called a
low plastic defense a defense mechanism
which shifts the blame and the
responsibility and the attendant guilt
feeling to the outside in order to avoid
an inner conflict I think we all know
people who don't accept blame themselves
and blame other people for things that
going on in their life and struggle to
take responsibility but what percentage
of the population are actually I guess
11:01
clinically narcissists
is this a big amount or is this the race
more minority according to the latest
edition of the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual published in June
2013 last year I mean about a year and
something ago about 1% of the population
would qualify as suffering from
narcissistic personality disorder but
this is of this is obviously a massive
underestimate and the reason that it is
11:31
an underestimate is that
narcissists rarely subject themselves
visit of psychological testing or to a
therapeutic setting so it's very
difficult to come across narcissist in a
scholarly environment or in a
therapeutic environment and so
narcissism is heavily and massively
underestimated not so psychopathy
psychically or antisocial personality
disorder I believe is pretty well
measured the prevalence and the
12:03
incidence of antisocial personalities
order I believe is is accurately
reflected in the literature and the
reason is very simple
many Psychopaths end up in jail end up
in prison so there they are subjected to
compulsory evaluations assessments and
sometimes therapy indeed Robert hare the
father and mother of modern the modern
study of psychopathy is actually a
prison psychiatrist is brought bulk of
12:35
his career he had spent in prisons where
he studied this population but
narcissists are a lot more insidious a
lot more stuff a lot more they act by
proxy they are great they have great
thespian skills they're great actors
they are they know how to adopt
themselves so that they appear to be
socially acceptable pillars of the
community indeed many of them climb up
the corporate ladder or politics or show
13:07
business or the judiciary or law
enforcement or the clergy
ended up in positions of authority I'm
not
in that a little bit further than
because that 1% that you said was an
underestimate I thought that was quite
high number yes not knowing as much
about it as you obviously and 1% we
suggest that you most people would
definitely know so on who's not cystic
but if it's higher than that then it's
likely that you know either family
members or definitely people that you
work with if you work in a big enough
13:39
big organization are going to be
afflicted with this so if we look at a
stereotypical organization now so they
can relate this to their workplace are
we talking about management that are
more like to be narcissistic or is it
likely to be the CEOs of company or is
it salespeople is there a specific part
of the company that tends to have more
narcissistic people than others with
your with your kind permission before
answer your question I would like to to
make two comments why not narcissism is
14:10
only partly a mental health diagnosis
mental mental health construct it is
equally influenced by culture and
society it is what we call a
culture-bound syndrome it tends to
increase in societies which are
narcissistic or which reward narcissism
so societies which would place emphasis
on individualism on ambition on
trampling on other people you know
Darwinistic societies societies which
14:41
would emphasize competition and
ruthlessness and so forth would tend to
reward narcissists and in these
societies people would become
narcissistic indeed there is a
suggestive diagnosis by Professor
Millman of Harvard University
situational narcissism narcissism which
is provoked and engendered by
circumstances so this is comment number
one in society such as the United States
for instance countries such as the
15:11
United States it would stand to reason
that narcissism is more prevalent more
visible and more widespread then in let
us say Japan which is a collectivist
society that's one thing second second
comment I would like to I'd like to make
narcissism
logical narcissism is rarely diagnosed
alone it is usually comorbid in other
words it's diagnosed with other mental
health disorders mood disorders other
personality disorders and so on
15:42
so one might one comes across
narcissists whose main complaint or
whose main syndrome a symptom is not
narcissism prime example will be
borderline personality disorder which is
extremely accentuated narcissistic
dimensions so narcissism is not an
isolated phenomenon a I think a good
case can be made that ethological
narcissism is the foundation of myriad
16:14
other mental health problems so these
are the two comments answer your
question nas assistant tend to gravitate
towards positions of authority because
there they can exercise power and
extract not to say export narcissistic
supply attention adulation admiration
from their surroundings human
surroundings they need this input of
narcissistic supply it is both a dragon
a drug and an fuel to their machinery in
16:47
the absence of narcissistic supply they
crumble crumble and crumple and go to
dust so they would tend to gravitate to
these positions of authority but if they
fail to gravitate if they fail to reach
these positions I'm sorry if they fail
to reach these positions
they would opt for second best and
second best is to become minions and
psycho fans and fans and admirers and
followers and subscribers to those in
power so you can find them actually most
17:20
represented in these two positions
either is the figures of authority
imposing authority on others and thereby
enhancing their own feelings of
omnipotence and grandiosity or by
serving as satellites as
over people hello young listen the
headlights or extensions of people in
17:50
positions of authority and thereby
deriving the narcissistic supply by
proxy if you wish indeed the second type
of gnosis is that I've just described
the satellite or the extension it is
known as covert narcissist or inverted
narcissist so narcissus who is very much
like the moon he shines but with
reflected light and it is the reflected
light of the fun the main narcissist the
18:21
one who is in power so these are the two
it's very rare to find narcissus in you
know low level long term low level
occupations and so on if they are
completely unable to reach the top they
would tend tend to be itinerant they
will tend to be desultory they will tend
to hop from one job to another from one
position to another they would change 40
careers in the span of 20 years
attempting to reach the top somewhere
18:52
somehow from then a business and
workplace respective then what traits do
narcissists have they're actually
positive for the business it seems like
some things like if you if you willing
to trample on others to get the top that
might not be necessarily positive but if
you're willing if you know that the
reward in attention is there at the end
you might be willing to put in way more
work than someone who isn't potentially
narcissistic is that about right
19:22
intuitively it sounds right but the
correct response is counterintuitive
but the logical Gnosticism is never ever
good for business now what I've just
said is not accepted by some scholars
such as Kevin Dutton in others Maccabi
this scholars claim that narcissism can
be harnessed and can be put to good use
within the corporate structure and that
the drive of the narcissist
19:55
he's in irrevocable energy his neediness
and addiction to narcissistic supply and
so on so forth are actually energies
this could be channeled and and
leveraged for the benefit of the
organization and that is a serious
serious mistake in thinking and a
serious misrepresentation of case
studies narcissists are very good as
entrepreneurs they are charismatic
20:27
usually their intelligence they are
driven they have clear goals and they
motivate people around them either in
the form of a cult cult-like setting or
in preferring a vision a common vision
and we call this shared psychosis kind
of a hypnotic psychotic state into which
everyone else buys and so they are good
20:57
at inducing these pretty pathological
States and they are therefore good at
building up businesses gobbling up
businesses through mergers and
acquisitions they are very good at
creating teams putting teams together on
condition that they had their bunam at
the ED helm and they are the Chiefs of
these things they are very bad team
players that they are very good team
builders and so on and so forth however
21:32
narcissists invariably include
ultimately all narcissus without a
single exception are self-destructive
they would put 20 years into a business
they would build it up into a global
conglomerate but then the
self-destructiveness we come into play
and they will end it will all come
tumbling down
why narcissism says destructive is
perhaps outside the remit of this
22:02
problem but it it is a given narcissus
as destructive in a variety of ways
they're very inventive they're very
inventive in the way that they extract
narcissistic supply from people and our
equally inventive in the ways in which
they self-destruct implode and ruin
everything and everyone around them but
they invariably do perhaps an excellent
example would be a Dolph Ziggler
Adolf Hitler who has remote diagnosis a
narcissist by erik from a prominent
22:33
psychoanalyst adolf hitler has succeeded
to build out of the ashes and the ruins
of the first world war
having come having appeared on the scene
having burst on the scene literally from
nowhere and with zero credentials and
achievements to his name this nobody
succeeded to put up together a
formidable
a formidable war machine involving an
empire the likes of which the world has
not seen since Alexander the Great
23:05
now and he has done all that in less
than a decade yet we all know how it
ended so they are great in the face of
construction unfortunately they also
unequaled in the face of destruction
so I've mused about out of Hitler before
and this is a slightly going off topic I
guess from the business world but I've
I've thought on content contemplated
that perhaps if he had done and gone
into the role that he did because he was
23:37
an artist beforehand and he could from
some things he could have been an
entrepreneur it could have been anything
are you suggesting that whatever he'd
done even if it had been to the good of
mankind rather than you know what what
he did end up doing that it would have
imploded eventually now first of all for
a very long time everyone thought he was
acting for the good of mankind I can
show you ad relating and fawning
articles in the British press about
Adolf Hitler not to mention the American
24:08
press well into the late 1930s so his
post mortem assessment posthumous
assessment as a monster these victims
history
throughout most of his life he has not
he was not considered a monster at all
he was considered a fresh political
talent with innovative courageous ideas
a rebuilder of his own nation a
reconstruction of the space of Europe
and so on so forth it is only when in
24:42
1940 that the images you know changed
but yes the answer is yes
whatever he whichever field he would
have entered whichever endeavor he would
have embarked upon it would have ended
up the same all the gnosis is to all of
them do from Enron to the Federation
they all do okay so let's put this into
context for listener then listeners
listening they work in the corporate
environment and their boss fits
25:14
perfectly to the role and the aspects of
a narcissist
or a psychopath which we just talked
about they are constantly claiming that
the subordinates worker those are taking
potentially advantage of them in
different ways what is the best way to
deal with this situation if you know
your boss is a narcissist is there a
best way to deal with it or is the best
way to move to a different place within
the company and have different
management well best using the word vest
25:46
is a bit misleading best to whom in
which circumstances depending on one's
character as well
the best way is to add you late at Meyer
a door visibly volubly and repeatedly
your boss brown-nose if you wish to use
a less savory experience a phrase so
this is this this is the winning tactic
never fails our unique is by doing that
you're you're stroking their ego so
26:18
they're more likely to work with you in
you be in their good books by doing that
you're stroking their ego you're
distorting the reality because you are
providing them with fallacious feedback
and by doing so you are in control of
the real reality you have information
which they are not privy to
and this gives you the the leverage and
the power to manipulate them and indeed
gnosis is a very gullible and easily
manipulable they are junkies think
junkie
you know you provided with the fix
26:49
provided with those they're yours for
the taking
so this is the the winning and only
viable long-term strategy of survival
around a narcissist and in the work
environment however very few people are
either willing or able to countenance
let alone implement such a strategy
because it requires you to some extent
to possess psychopathic and narcissistic
traits of your own well that is what I
27:19
was just about to ask in the it's a
fascinating twists in the speaking to
yourself as a narcissist you're telling
me how to manipulate other narcissists
which leave is the question then of do
you then get to a point within the
corporate structure where you get a
higher and higher percentage of
narcissists because they're the only
people that are willing to manipulate
and play the game with each other yes is
precisely what I've said I've said that
narcissists tend to gravitate and and
conglomerate conglomerate and accumulate
27:50
in the upper strata that means in
positions of authority and in the
satellites and extensions around them so
yes
level see in a bit down the these would
be gnosis in masses that are rarely
found in the lower echelons or lower
levels of the corporation they gravitate
up they LX come you know they go to the
top well some I've got two questions for
you one question I asked everyone it
comes on the show which I ask you in a
second but before that just to wrap
28:23
things up here
you mentioned the PC L are tests that
may or may not be the best test to look
at this but if remember the audience now
and me included if you feel like you
have some of these traits that we've
talked about what's the best way to go
about like an initial kind of test
before you'd speak to a doctor or
psychiatrist whoever who could give you
a clinical diagnosis is the attest that
can do perhaps online or from a book
that would give you a heads up as to how
28:52
narcissistic or psychopathic you are no
not really
because all these tests both online and
offline regrettably requires self
reporting honest self reporting and no
matter how honest you think you are
especially if you're a narcissist you're
not honest yeah honest it's a
self-defeating proposition it's like the
famous Abdera paradox you know all all
up there ends are liars and who says
that in up there in so is the lying or
is it telling the truth so self
29:23
reporting is a problem and this is the
main obstacle in diagnosing novices and
Psychopaths because ultimately we have
to rely on their honest self reporting
and the self reporting of people are
rather in the reporting of people around
them who are usually scared of them I
would like to avoid them or would say
anything just to obtain certain outcomes
so it's very difficult to diagnose them
but they are tests designed in order to
circumvent self reporting so we have a
29:54
test such as the MMPI - which is a
dimensional very complex test and very
difficult to beat even if you know the
testator
intimately so that would be my
recommendation by the first line MN CIL
MPI - and perhaps MCM I 3 these are the
two tests that I would the other the
most common test used to diagnose
narcissist the narcissistic personality
inventory is idiotic sorry for being
blunt because it requires the narcissus
to self-report honestly unflinchingly
30:25
and to be self-aware since this bothers
on on humanity so and the second the
second way is with the trained observer
diagnostician who is a trained observer
has been exposed to hundreds of cases
and is able through a structured
interview and through direct
observations of body language demeanor
reaction reactivity and so on so forth
in a therapeutic City setting after
30:58
several
reach the conclusion that perhaps we are
dealing with the narcissist and perhaps
not so it's a process diagnosing a
narcissist is a process especially
taking into account that narcissists
have developed over the years have
developed numerous stratagems to hide in
these guys the less savory aspects of
the personality they have been exposed
to a lot of censure a lot of social
rejection and criticism as they were
growing up so they ever learn to these
31:28
guys these guys who they are and they
applied it in a poetic setting but after
several sessions a train diagnostician
with without structured interviews and
and and with without applying
psychological tests such as the MMPI we
still be able to say if someone is a
narcissist along okay okay well some
just before we come on to you tell us a
little bit about your book and where the
audience can learn more about you and
your work I've got one final question
for you and that's something I've asked
everyone is come on the show so far and
32:00
that is if you could go back in time and
speak to your younger self what would be
one piece of advice you'd give him to
help him upgrade his brain in my case I
benefit mightily from my dysfunction we
are talking to each other because I'm
dysfunctional and disordered so I have I
have leveraged and applied and used my
disorder my dysfunction and my ruination
32:32
in order to obtain the very narcissistic
supply that I require analysis of
narcissus would be unable
constitutionally to respond to the
question that you've asked because they
are emotionally invested in their
disorder they are very happy with it
they are what we call in psychology
ego-syntonic means they're comfortable
with the disorder they aid and abet the
disorder and the disorder is an abyss
them it's a partnership the symbiosis so
nothing's wrong with it nothing could
33:04
ever be wrong with it retro actively or
prospectively amazing well some your
insights absolutely fascinating to me
and thank you do you want to just tell
us
a little bit more about your book
malignant self-love where we can find
where we can find where we can find it
yeah sorry
malignant self-love narcissism revisited
is available of course via Amazon and
Barnes & Noble I think your first stop
if you want to get acquainted with my
work and more generally narcissism and
psychopathy and so on the first stop
33:34
might well be in in my youtube channel
let's send that me in my name sa MVA k
ni n so youtube.com backslash son back
need there are well over 300 videos
there and I believe you'll find your
match and then my book malignant
narcissism revisited Amazon Barnes Noble
and my website which is narcissistic -
abuse calm just type my name into Google
I'm sure you'll come up with some
34:05
results awesome I really appreciate your
time today it's been absolutely
fascinating talking to you and we'll
link to all them in the show notes at
radio dots of graded a calm for anyone
who is in the car at the gym at the
moment and some I just wanna thank you
again for your time today really
appreciate it and thank you for coming
on the upgraded eight show thank you for
every week
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