Bullied by Workplace Narcisssists and Psychopaths?

Bullied by Workplace Narcisssists and Psychopaths?

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hello upgraders and welcome to another edition of the upgrade ape show I'm your host well Baron and today's show we have Sam Vaknin who is an expert on gnosis Psychopaths and has been diagnosed with both conditions absolutely fascinating talk Sam's an absolute wealth of knowledge in this area and we're talking about how you can recognize narcissist and psychopaths in the workplace and then what you can then go on to do to one stop them bullying or manipulating you
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and to perhaps manage them better if you're a manager or how to survive working underneath them what fascinated me about all this is that the literature suggests that 1% of people in the Western world are either nauseous or Psychopaths however most Psychopaths for example don't know that they're a psychopath because they think that they're fine think that they're great so that 1% is actually a tiny amount that's very likely that you have friends or family or colleagues that are narcissists or Psychopaths and all this
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is on a sliding scale from you know Hannibal Lecter to the boss who likes attention and who is stealing credit for your work so that's something to bear in mind and some is the editor of mental health disorders in the open directory project he's got a book out malignant self-love and his work has been featured on mental health matters mental health century mental health today mental health review a loads of other websites and publications so just before we get into the show exciting news in that you can now download or graded a magazine
01:35
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02:07
today's show welcome to the up gradients your daily dose of brain upgrades to help you kick life's ass and use your homes will very high some and welcome to they've created a show thank you for everything you are more than welcome and today we're going to dive into the fascinating world of narcissism and Psychopaths and just before we dive into that and we're going to talk about in the context of the workplace can you tell us a definition of what a
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narcissist and a psychopath is just for listeners to clarify what we're going to talk about the distinction between narcissists and Psychopaths has gradually become more and more blurred and today it is thought that a psychopath may be simply an extreme form of narcissus Psychopaths are more prone to anti antisocial behavior including criminal conduct they are less empathic than narcissists if at all possible they
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are more centered on their benefits on non tangible benefits that they may derive from people and from situations anything from sexual favors to money to the accumulation of power to the exercise of power cetera et cetera psychopaths are also a bit more in a more Deb it's a bit more addicted to inflicting pain on other people they find it pleasurable and some of them even find it funny narcissists are a mellowed version of a psychopath they
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also lack empathy they are exploitative but they are addicted to input from other people input which we call narcissistic supply which essentially is attention whether positive or negative narcissus of course prefer admiration and adulation to notoriety but if they cannot obtain the positive kind of attention then they would definitely go for the negative kind of attention so while psychopaths are stand alone units they are totally autonomous and they are not reliant nor are they
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dependent on anyone for anything narcissists are narcissists are addicted to narcissistic supply and therefore they are addicted to the input provided by people around them they go and solicit this input actively and sometimes forcefully so these are the distinction between the two types but both of them are callous ruthless this empathic emotionless and pretty terrifying okay well before we
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dive into how to spot these people and whether that whether it's good or bad and the sliding scale of how narcissistic and how psychopathic you can be you just tell some little bit how you got involved in this world in the first place well I've been diagnosed with both I'm a narcissist and a psychopath and having confronted my own diagnosis multiple-- I've decided to delve into the into the issue and in 1997 when I started my magneri 5
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actually when I started my work on on these topics it was personality disorders in general and narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders in particular we're an obscure and neglected sub sub sub field of expertise among a very limited set of scholars novices and Psychopaths are very hateful and difficult patients they do not yield to Authority nor do they improve with
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treatment so they are very disappointing in resilient subjects both for study and for therapy and so psychiatrists psychologists and therapists tend to avoid narcissist and Psychopaths 1995 there has been nothing absolutely nothing written about this disorder with the exception of one of the books and so I had I had to do you know I have to start everything from scratch and I've spent the last 20 years studying both
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disorders coming up with a vocabulary that is widely used today actually and suggesting insights some of them accepted some of them rejected with regards to these two afflictions I've written several books the most well-known of which I believe is malignant sloth narcissism revisited but I've written other books as well about personality disorders and I have correspondent and observed thousands of narcissus people diagnosed officially
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with narcissistic personality disorder and with hundreds of thousands so family members neighbors colleagues bosses co-workers you name it now I know I probably have it would be safe to say that I have the largest database with regards to these aliens among us sure-sure lost fascinating some and one question that comes to my mind listening back to you then was how and why did you
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go to get a formal diagnosis in the first place is this something that you'd notice the traits of narcissism psychopathy in yourself or someone else mentioned them to you I've been coerced twice into into evaluation once by my then fiance who had the wits and intelligence to bail out and second time in prison I did time for securities fraud and as a condition for parole I
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was I had to commit myself to psychiatric evaluation so on both occasions the verdict of narcissistic personality disorder was rendered in conjunction with one or two other personality disorders and in about four or five years ago I participated in a documentary titled a psychopath in which quite publicly I was diagnosed with psychopathy they used a test called the
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PCL P CLR it is concocted by one Robert fair and while they are there's a serious debate about the validity of the test for instance it is not accepted by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Committee which is the body the body over orthodoxy in psychiatry but still it's indicative and so it would be safe to say that I'm a psychopathic narcissist after all these luminaries have pored over my record and myself multiplied but I think earth into it is an
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important question actually which of us I've been coerced into into evaluation and coerced into treatment and therapy you see prior to prior to being confronted with my diagnosis I was completely unsafe aware I I would have found it pretty funny as you suggested to me that something's wrong with me I would afford that you are dim-witted I would have ascribed pernicious and paranoid motives and motivations to you for having said it for having suggested
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that something's wrong with me I would have blamed everyone and anything for my misfortunes and defeats and and so on and recall this whole thing a lot lastic defense's other plastic defenses better known as external locus of control means simply the narcissist and Psychopaths before they become self-aware and some of them do I'm an example but before they become self-aware psychopathic narcissist and to blame everyone and
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everything for the mishaps and misfortunes and the downfalls in their lives they can do nothing wrong nor do they ever do anything wrong everyone else is to blame the boss is envious of them their co-workers are jealous of them and undermine them no one appreciates improperly the universe is badly designed God is to blame society it's to the increasing stupidity of the populace you name it later the cabbie I
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mean everyone was with one exception the narcissist himself and this is called a low plastic defense a defense mechanism which shifts the blame and the responsibility and the attendant guilt feeling to the outside in order to avoid an inner conflict I think we all know people who don't accept blame themselves and blame other people for things that going on in their life and struggle to take responsibility but what percentage of the population are actually I guess
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clinically narcissists is this a big amount or is this the race more minority according to the latest edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual published in June 2013 last year I mean about a year and something ago about 1% of the population would qualify as suffering from narcissistic personality disorder but this is of this is obviously a massive underestimate and the reason that it is
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an underestimate is that narcissists rarely subject themselves visit of psychological testing or to a therapeutic setting so it's very difficult to come across narcissist in a scholarly environment or in a therapeutic environment and so narcissism is heavily and massively underestimated not so psychopathy psychically or antisocial personality disorder I believe is pretty well measured the prevalence and the
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incidence of antisocial personalities order I believe is is accurately reflected in the literature and the reason is very simple many Psychopaths end up in jail end up in prison so there they are subjected to compulsory evaluations assessments and sometimes therapy indeed Robert hare the father and mother of modern the modern study of psychopathy is actually a prison psychiatrist is brought bulk of
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his career he had spent in prisons where he studied this population but narcissists are a lot more insidious a lot more stuff a lot more they act by proxy they are great they have great thespian skills they're great actors they are they know how to adopt themselves so that they appear to be socially acceptable pillars of the community indeed many of them climb up the corporate ladder or politics or show
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business or the judiciary or law enforcement or the clergy ended up in positions of authority I'm not in that a little bit further than because that 1% that you said was an underestimate I thought that was quite high number yes not knowing as much about it as you obviously and 1% we suggest that you most people would definitely know so on who's not cystic but if it's higher than that then it's likely that you know either family members or definitely people that you work with if you work in a big enough
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big organization are going to be afflicted with this so if we look at a stereotypical organization now so they can relate this to their workplace are we talking about management that are more like to be narcissistic or is it likely to be the CEOs of company or is it salespeople is there a specific part of the company that tends to have more narcissistic people than others with your with your kind permission before answer your question I would like to to make two comments why not narcissism is
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only partly a mental health diagnosis mental mental health construct it is equally influenced by culture and society it is what we call a culture-bound syndrome it tends to increase in societies which are narcissistic or which reward narcissism so societies which would place emphasis on individualism on ambition on trampling on other people you know Darwinistic societies societies which
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would emphasize competition and ruthlessness and so forth would tend to reward narcissists and in these societies people would become narcissistic indeed there is a suggestive diagnosis by Professor Millman of Harvard University situational narcissism narcissism which is provoked and engendered by circumstances so this is comment number one in society such as the United States for instance countries such as the
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United States it would stand to reason that narcissism is more prevalent more visible and more widespread then in let us say Japan which is a collectivist society that's one thing second second comment I would like to I'd like to make narcissism logical narcissism is rarely diagnosed alone it is usually comorbid in other words it's diagnosed with other mental health disorders mood disorders other personality disorders and so on
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so one might one comes across narcissists whose main complaint or whose main syndrome a symptom is not narcissism prime example will be borderline personality disorder which is extremely accentuated narcissistic dimensions so narcissism is not an isolated phenomenon a I think a good case can be made that ethological narcissism is the foundation of myriad
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other mental health problems so these are the two comments answer your question nas assistant tend to gravitate towards positions of authority because there they can exercise power and extract not to say export narcissistic supply attention adulation admiration from their surroundings human surroundings they need this input of narcissistic supply it is both a dragon a drug and an fuel to their machinery in
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the absence of narcissistic supply they crumble crumble and crumple and go to dust so they would tend to gravitate to these positions of authority but if they fail to gravitate if they fail to reach these positions I'm sorry if they fail to reach these positions they would opt for second best and second best is to become minions and psycho fans and fans and admirers and followers and subscribers to those in power so you can find them actually most
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represented in these two positions either is the figures of authority imposing authority on others and thereby enhancing their own feelings of omnipotence and grandiosity or by serving as satellites as over people hello young listen the headlights or extensions of people in
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positions of authority and thereby deriving the narcissistic supply by proxy if you wish indeed the second type of gnosis is that I've just described the satellite or the extension it is known as covert narcissist or inverted narcissist so narcissus who is very much like the moon he shines but with reflected light and it is the reflected light of the fun the main narcissist the
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one who is in power so these are the two it's very rare to find narcissus in you know low level long term low level occupations and so on if they are completely unable to reach the top they would tend tend to be itinerant they will tend to be desultory they will tend to hop from one job to another from one position to another they would change 40 careers in the span of 20 years attempting to reach the top somewhere
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somehow from then a business and workplace respective then what traits do narcissists have they're actually positive for the business it seems like some things like if you if you willing to trample on others to get the top that might not be necessarily positive but if you're willing if you know that the reward in attention is there at the end you might be willing to put in way more work than someone who isn't potentially narcissistic is that about right
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intuitively it sounds right but the correct response is counterintuitive but the logical Gnosticism is never ever good for business now what I've just said is not accepted by some scholars such as Kevin Dutton in others Maccabi this scholars claim that narcissism can be harnessed and can be put to good use within the corporate structure and that the drive of the narcissist
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he's in irrevocable energy his neediness and addiction to narcissistic supply and so on so forth are actually energies this could be channeled and and leveraged for the benefit of the organization and that is a serious serious mistake in thinking and a serious misrepresentation of case studies narcissists are very good as entrepreneurs they are charismatic
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usually their intelligence they are driven they have clear goals and they motivate people around them either in the form of a cult cult-like setting or in preferring a vision a common vision and we call this shared psychosis kind of a hypnotic psychotic state into which everyone else buys and so they are good
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at inducing these pretty pathological States and they are therefore good at building up businesses gobbling up businesses through mergers and acquisitions they are very good at creating teams putting teams together on condition that they had their bunam at the ED helm and they are the Chiefs of these things they are very bad team players that they are very good team builders and so on and so forth however
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narcissists invariably include ultimately all narcissus without a single exception are self-destructive they would put 20 years into a business they would build it up into a global conglomerate but then the self-destructiveness we come into play and they will end it will all come tumbling down why narcissism says destructive is perhaps outside the remit of this
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problem but it it is a given narcissus as destructive in a variety of ways they're very inventive they're very inventive in the way that they extract narcissistic supply from people and our equally inventive in the ways in which they self-destruct implode and ruin everything and everyone around them but they invariably do perhaps an excellent example would be a Dolph Ziggler Adolf Hitler who has remote diagnosis a narcissist by erik from a prominent
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psychoanalyst adolf hitler has succeeded to build out of the ashes and the ruins of the first world war having come having appeared on the scene having burst on the scene literally from nowhere and with zero credentials and achievements to his name this nobody succeeded to put up together a formidable a formidable war machine involving an empire the likes of which the world has not seen since Alexander the Great
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now and he has done all that in less than a decade yet we all know how it ended so they are great in the face of construction unfortunately they also unequaled in the face of destruction so I've mused about out of Hitler before and this is a slightly going off topic I guess from the business world but I've I've thought on content contemplated that perhaps if he had done and gone into the role that he did because he was
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an artist beforehand and he could from some things he could have been an entrepreneur it could have been anything are you suggesting that whatever he'd done even if it had been to the good of mankind rather than you know what what he did end up doing that it would have imploded eventually now first of all for a very long time everyone thought he was acting for the good of mankind I can show you ad relating and fawning articles in the British press about Adolf Hitler not to mention the American
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press well into the late 1930s so his post mortem assessment posthumous assessment as a monster these victims history throughout most of his life he has not he was not considered a monster at all he was considered a fresh political talent with innovative courageous ideas a rebuilder of his own nation a reconstruction of the space of Europe and so on so forth it is only when in
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1940 that the images you know changed but yes the answer is yes whatever he whichever field he would have entered whichever endeavor he would have embarked upon it would have ended up the same all the gnosis is to all of them do from Enron to the Federation they all do okay so let's put this into context for listener then listeners listening they work in the corporate environment and their boss fits
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perfectly to the role and the aspects of a narcissist or a psychopath which we just talked about they are constantly claiming that the subordinates worker those are taking potentially advantage of them in different ways what is the best way to deal with this situation if you know your boss is a narcissist is there a best way to deal with it or is the best way to move to a different place within the company and have different management well best using the word vest
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is a bit misleading best to whom in which circumstances depending on one's character as well the best way is to add you late at Meyer a door visibly volubly and repeatedly your boss brown-nose if you wish to use a less savory experience a phrase so this is this this is the winning tactic never fails our unique is by doing that you're you're stroking their ego so
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they're more likely to work with you in you be in their good books by doing that you're stroking their ego you're distorting the reality because you are providing them with fallacious feedback and by doing so you are in control of the real reality you have information which they are not privy to and this gives you the the leverage and the power to manipulate them and indeed gnosis is a very gullible and easily manipulable they are junkies think junkie you know you provided with the fix
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provided with those they're yours for the taking so this is the the winning and only viable long-term strategy of survival around a narcissist and in the work environment however very few people are either willing or able to countenance let alone implement such a strategy because it requires you to some extent to possess psychopathic and narcissistic traits of your own well that is what I
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was just about to ask in the it's a fascinating twists in the speaking to yourself as a narcissist you're telling me how to manipulate other narcissists which leave is the question then of do you then get to a point within the corporate structure where you get a higher and higher percentage of narcissists because they're the only people that are willing to manipulate and play the game with each other yes is precisely what I've said I've said that narcissists tend to gravitate and and conglomerate conglomerate and accumulate
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in the upper strata that means in positions of authority and in the satellites and extensions around them so yes level see in a bit down the these would be gnosis in masses that are rarely found in the lower echelons or lower levels of the corporation they gravitate up they LX come you know they go to the top well some I've got two questions for you one question I asked everyone it comes on the show which I ask you in a second but before that just to wrap
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things up here you mentioned the PC L are tests that may or may not be the best test to look at this but if remember the audience now and me included if you feel like you have some of these traits that we've talked about what's the best way to go about like an initial kind of test before you'd speak to a doctor or psychiatrist whoever who could give you a clinical diagnosis is the attest that can do perhaps online or from a book that would give you a heads up as to how
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narcissistic or psychopathic you are no not really because all these tests both online and offline regrettably requires self reporting honest self reporting and no matter how honest you think you are especially if you're a narcissist you're not honest yeah honest it's a self-defeating proposition it's like the famous Abdera paradox you know all all up there ends are liars and who says that in up there in so is the lying or is it telling the truth so self
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reporting is a problem and this is the main obstacle in diagnosing novices and Psychopaths because ultimately we have to rely on their honest self reporting and the self reporting of people are rather in the reporting of people around them who are usually scared of them I would like to avoid them or would say anything just to obtain certain outcomes so it's very difficult to diagnose them but they are tests designed in order to circumvent self reporting so we have a
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test such as the MMPI - which is a dimensional very complex test and very difficult to beat even if you know the testator intimately so that would be my recommendation by the first line MN CIL MPI - and perhaps MCM I 3 these are the two tests that I would the other the most common test used to diagnose narcissist the narcissistic personality inventory is idiotic sorry for being blunt because it requires the narcissus to self-report honestly unflinchingly
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and to be self-aware since this bothers on on humanity so and the second the second way is with the trained observer diagnostician who is a trained observer has been exposed to hundreds of cases and is able through a structured interview and through direct observations of body language demeanor reaction reactivity and so on so forth in a therapeutic City setting after
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several reach the conclusion that perhaps we are dealing with the narcissist and perhaps not so it's a process diagnosing a narcissist is a process especially taking into account that narcissists have developed over the years have developed numerous stratagems to hide in these guys the less savory aspects of the personality they have been exposed to a lot of censure a lot of social rejection and criticism as they were growing up so they ever learn to these
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guys these guys who they are and they applied it in a poetic setting but after several sessions a train diagnostician with without structured interviews and and and with without applying psychological tests such as the MMPI we still be able to say if someone is a narcissist along okay okay well some just before we come on to you tell us a little bit about your book and where the audience can learn more about you and your work I've got one final question for you and that's something I've asked everyone is come on the show so far and
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that is if you could go back in time and speak to your younger self what would be one piece of advice you'd give him to help him upgrade his brain in my case I benefit mightily from my dysfunction we are talking to each other because I'm dysfunctional and disordered so I have I have leveraged and applied and used my disorder my dysfunction and my ruination
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in order to obtain the very narcissistic supply that I require analysis of narcissus would be unable constitutionally to respond to the question that you've asked because they are emotionally invested in their disorder they are very happy with it they are what we call in psychology ego-syntonic means they're comfortable with the disorder they aid and abet the disorder and the disorder is an abyss them it's a partnership the symbiosis so nothing's wrong with it nothing could
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ever be wrong with it retro actively or prospectively amazing well some your insights absolutely fascinating to me and thank you do you want to just tell us a little bit more about your book malignant self-love where we can find where we can find where we can find it yeah sorry malignant self-love narcissism revisited is available of course via Amazon and Barnes & Noble I think your first stop if you want to get acquainted with my work and more generally narcissism and psychopathy and so on the first stop
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might well be in in my youtube channel let's send that me in my name sa MVA k ni n so youtube.com backslash son back need there are well over 300 videos there and I believe you'll find your match and then my book malignant narcissism revisited Amazon Barnes Noble and my website which is narcissistic - abuse calm just type my name into Google I'm sure you'll come up with some
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results awesome I really appreciate your time today it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you and we'll link to all them in the show notes at radio dots of graded a calm for anyone who is in the car at the gym at the moment and some I just wanna thank you again for your time today really appreciate it and thank you for coming on the upgraded eight show thank you for every week

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