Ann and Sasha Shulgin: Ask the Shulgins

Ann and Sasha Shulgin: Ask the Shulgins

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00:00
any question that you want to ask is acceptable if we don't want to answer it we will lie I suppose but I think all questions are acceptable to us I understand you're working on a new book when what is it about it and when is it due out I'm working on a book right now it's been on on it for a couple of years more than that about five years for you
00:31
no no it's modeled on the Merck Index which I'm sure many you know of I'm calling it the and the name of the book will be probably the psychedelic index and it is a collection of information on compounds that are known to be psychedelic or have been explored too as if they might be psychedelic but have the activity has not yet been found or they have not been explored at all but they have a structure that is very seductive and might very well be the
01:02
compound might be psychedelic and each of these compounds is in the book with its structure an outline of the published syntheses physical properties and biochemical properties and pharmacological properties and the legal status and within these individual compounds there are collections of analogs and homologs and and isomers each of these compounds is in other
01:34
words completely described and every single statement of description has a literature reference at acts to it therefore it's completely documented currently there are approximately 2,000 compounds in the book and I estimate the book would probably be around 1,500 to 2,000 pages and I hope to have it in the condition ready for proofreading and typesetting by the middle of the year good if the antidotal material is in the literature it's in there and it's cited
02:11
if it's anecdotal and is not documented it's not documented it's not in there there seem to be a magnet on the 5-htt receptor which do not seem to have an active psychedelic I'm how to say an active psychedelic um I'm level but um questions may be once again in English because it technically No
03:11
well I don't know I didn't hear this aspect dealing with c11 P 11 P opieop let me let me just sort of generally answer the flavor of the question there are I'm sure many compounds that are psychoactive that do not call upon that particular serotonin receptor site and it's very possible that there's a quantitative aspect in which it is a very weak aspect of that receptor site and it may take a large amount of
03:43
material or proportionately large model material to be psychoactive and I see no reason but what a material might be psychoactive and have nothing to do with serotonin whatsoever if I had this information to work with myself and I came across it I would use it as a thing to learn from rather than try to explain well I said that's an interesting question to go after I have compounds that have aspects of the MDMA in it that are indeed have certain aspects of erotic component and fortunately I have
04:28
a very good working partner who can help explain some of these subtleties but the truth is in working with new compounds every new compound that you develop is a brand new individual and you have to become familiar with it and it has to become familiar with you and as you get to know it and it knows you more and more then you can begin defining its pharmacological and it's valuable properties to that specific question I do not remember what I was talking about at the time do you remember anything about a
05:10
particular compound did you write it down a note or oh my I can't remember did we have wine at lunch and blankets master in March I was lucky to buy some thousand doses at zero in Amsterdam and it was legal this time in the Netherlands my research article you published several years ago on something others I have made the beta
05:56
keto analogs of many of quite a few compounds and have tasted most of them to a large measure the activity is in the same ballpark at level as the parent amphetamine I got into the methalone thing from an argument on ephedrine in that ephedrine is not and not an amphetamine but a beta hydroxy amphetamine and it has some stimulant properties and I've often wondered if it goes into the body and it metabolizes to
06:28
the ketone from the hydroxy compound what's in the brain and perhaps the compounds that are on feta means go into the brain and are oxidized to beta alcohols then on that basis perhaps you had a ketone which we get into the brains through the blood-brain barrier then in the brain it might be reduced to the beta alcohol therefore the thought was maybe both the amphetamine and the beta keto amphetamine might become the same compound in the brain so it's logical to make the beta ketone
06:59
analogues of the amphetamine instances see if they have the same properties and to quite a measure they do mmm da I don't specifically remember I cannot tell you I could you tell me the question in English here maybe you can
07:32
about MD mm da in mice no none of those are a which were tested in mice you published it few years ago I think I am da MDA I did do some work with my some years ago and I've abandoned all all work with rats and mice I'm afraid because because I've been able only from my student out oxic something is - mice and I've had no insight from mouse response what an activity might be in man because the
08:06
action in man deals with the mind and not with the brain and so I end up with a inventory of dead mice but no more knowledge of how it's going to act in man so I've abandoned mouse experiments you're not getting any questions you currently have relationship with me da and you don't like what's going on with MDMA currently we should like to get back into the game what particular game
08:37
are you asking about a relationship with I mean he has never stopped working bass village fish team to speed it I'll give a quick answer before he answers his and our relationship with the DEA is how she say sort of a polite avoidance on both sides and MDMA has been the focus of a great deal of press attention everyone wants to know about
09:24
ecstasy which is one of our favorite words to hate because the term ecstasy has no meaning an ecstasy pill might have MDMA it might have a third MDMA it may have no MDMA but as long as it's called ecstasy the authorities blame MDMA for whatever happens I think our relationship the two of us with the DEA is pretty soundly defined that they go
09:55
their way and I go mine the DEA the Drug Enforcement Administration has its own world I have my own world and the worlds are quite far apart my main interest is is devising developing and expanding on new drugs they're a primary ambition is to take drugs and make them illegal and at the moment I'm staying comfortably for years ahead of them the moment is that uncanny Mithila changing and thus does the desire to
10:37
alternate to alter consciousness and change in becoming or in aging and becoming older question if your question was does the desire to alter consciousness change with aging no no I do have a question of my own since I also paid the entrance fee I think I should be able to do that I was becoming aware that Jim in your book tickle you
11:15
wrote in the entrance of salah sabine that certainly not the sparkle of LSD and this is something that I experienced myself that there is seems to be an integral difference between psilocybin mushrooms and LSD basically the states they produce is pretty much the same but I think with LSD and reflections of a reflective level is much more enhanced and with mushrooms there is a much more dreamy state in which I did not seem to be able to have as many insights as I did with LSD I quickly repeat this in
11:45
German and maybe it's just as just for me I my approach to that kind of a definition or description is that every single psychedelic drug that I have explored is different from every other one every person I have met is different from the next one now some people will like certain other people other more than other other people and and the same light not everybody is going to see a psilocybin or LSD in the same way other
12:17
people would see those two drugs so each drug is to each individual a unique and a personal interaction specifically along that line talking of psilocybin I have found that the acetate ester of the corresponding phenyl is very much like psilocybin in its action and I've made perhaps a half a dozen or a asked for a steel homologues of psilocin and some are very nice some are very interesting some are dull they are all
12:47
different but they are all interesting yes well five methoxy DMT is not orally active and therefore the activity has to come either from injection or smoking or taking it with a material that inhibits its metabolic destruction and as with DMT five methoxy DMT is natural in the human body and therefore you do not tend
13:20
to build up a tolerance to it or a blocking of further action that means that you can take and it has a material as an experiment and then at another two hours later have the same amount and get just about the same response and if you get that same response and do not build the tolerance the body has a way of in essence handling and taking care of its being given by methoxy DMT and since this instance the human mind is human
13:51
body is capable of taking care of additional amount of material I doubt if there's a way of extending its action namely it is in there the body recognizes it and takes care of it in its own way so in general I don't think there's a way of extending its action I won't add one one cave it to that in that I know of one person in a study that I was involved with with five methoxy DMT who had about a three or four hour experience with it which is much longer than any other body any
14:22
anybody else had and so there may be individual variations that would be real but I don't know the answer why ever since I read I think it was t call you were talking about being in South America visiting somewhere and the maid that was working for you or working for the house there she took some of the MDMA and she was pregnant right eating about that was you mentioned that you were watching dune on television at night and
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in the novel dune by Frank Herbert the witch Jessica been Jesuit which took a I guess it was a psychedelic while she was pregnant and it affected her child so ever since and in a good way I guess I mean I made her a kind of a freak but she was a very important person anyway ever since I read that I've always wondered did you did you realize that was part of the story of dune when you wrote that in your book or what did you
15:27
realize it later or uh no I think he's talking about woops what they call the spice in dune I didn't realize that but I would I was that we were both very very impressed by her story and we were I think a little worried that she was eight months pregnant and had taken the MDMA but I I
16:00
think that the consensus is that it is during the first three months that it is most important not to take any drug at all and I think both Sasha and I feel that during a pregnancy one should avoid all drugs but but in this case I gather we left before she had her baby but we heard it was a fine healthy baby Wendy's father was he of guys seen before the
16:33
sperm thus Kingdom phangan voor de courten sita Fonda's gesund on wall outside DC father Nick spazzy artist oh he Santa is definitely on the record for avoiding drugs everyone knows that I just thought it was really fascinating that the same night this happened that you were watching this story Berg's movie of dune and that was kind of a subplot of that movie and that was so synchronous that it struck me very hot powerfully
17:02
the truth is we were not watching dune the people in the householder Washington it was in Portuguese so it's generally accepted that it's not good to use any form advantages or the many medications of any kind was pregnant however now there is perhaps an epigenetic effect for that that may be residual in us both
17:35
prior to that and and indeed after during pregnancy not all effects of epigenetic effects possibly would necessarily have an ill effect after all evolution of mind and beingness itself must occur in this fashion what what I feel about that is that that it is best always to be extremely ex cautious when you're pregnant and it is best to take
18:05
only drugs that are given to you for good reason by your physician period on emotions I could add one thing to this in a funny way in a sad way in that taking a mother just before she gives birth taking an illegal drug can cause her to lose the baby in another way in that in the United States in our progress toward an integrated country if
18:36
a woman gives birth to a child and the child contains some of that illegal drug the mother can be tried for giving a illegal drug to a baby and go to prison and since the baby is not in prison with her she has lost the baby it's cruel and inhuman but it is real okay thank social but I if you don't mind one second if I may just thank you very much for though I fully agree but I was trying to refer to what perhaps it's the potential effect of our usage
19:12
experiences that are prior and pass on in general general genetically perhaps to our offspring or from events from far prior to pregnancy and nothing to do with with what we're adjusting whilst we're going on I mean the house what kind of effect you think this actually works with nice Lancet of mine possibly oh the if I understand if I understand the question is that prior in early
19:43
pregnancy there what is the term called the first trimester but there is a period of time there's not known exactly when that time is the sensitive time that there's a change in the embryonic development it was the child to be is extremely sensitive to any change in its dietary intake it's about about the somewhere around the second month I think that your question has to do with a drug use
20:14
before the pregnancy begins and that would I would think that that would depend upon how long a particular drug remains in the system I think that if you are going to be worried about psychedelic drugs having such an effect on a later pregnancy you would have to be just as concerned with legal over-the-counter drugs that are taken
20:47
there's another connection that might be considered that sometimes with a psychedelic drug there is a aspect of romantic attraction which if realized in a rational way might lead to pregnancy hi I would I read that you made an experiment with a columnar cactus supposedly psychoactive called serious bling clay but and I would like to know if this is true and if you have
21:29
any had in any positive results with the cactus what was the name of the compound PACA Syrah springle I okay yes I have done some work with the cactus PACA Syrah springle I close it's a cactus is native on the Baja California about halfway down the East Coast it grows native in that area head was used by natives about several hundred years ago at the time the Spanish
22:00
conquest came in and the natives culturally were abandoned they went north and had an entire disappearance of their old culture but they left behind cave paintings that were incredible and in some of the cave paintings there are pictures of gods in this holding their hands toward heaven in this way and a very good friend of mine was downtown a mullah who a very good friend of mine saw these and realized that the cactus growing there had their hands up in the
22:32
same way too and he wondered if perhaps the natives saw the cactus as being gods or being gods in the form of cactus and so being a diligent experimenter he went out and chopped off a little bits of the cactus boiled it up into water with a little lemon juice and drank it and it was extraordinarily psychedelic so he brought it north and we looked at it and tried it out also the 12 of us as a matter of fact and indeed it was but the fascinating thing is the cactus had no trace of mescaline in it it had no known
23:04
no compound in it that was known to be psychoactive I spent them some effort with it and have characterized about 20 20 compounds and identified about seven of which about three of the major ones I synthesized recorder called ISO Quinlan's and none of them are active and so I'm of the there are some fennel amines present also and none of them are known to be active so I have come to the conclusion that it may very well be an inactive in ethylamine is in the cactus it is
23:35
inactive because it's metabolized by the body very rapidly but some of the isoquinoline Tzar monoamine oxidase inhibitors therefore neither the phenol mean nor the isoquinoline alone are active but in combination you have activity because one not being active blocks the body's metabolism of the other so you have the counterpart of ayahuasca where you have an orally inactive DMT and as Parma logically psychologically inactive karbolyn in combination you have an active plant so
24:07
I'm looking at the maca series primi I from the point of view of being an active cactus and perhaps having two or more compounds that are only active if taken in concert I don't have any more answer right now than that I was wondering if you could shed your light on on the extent to which you've perceived differences in the workings of chemicals given differences in the way they were given differences in the way the raw materials were grown handled the
24:40
mentality with which these these the raw materials are I don't know a stored combined etc in other words how does how do the the the how does the mentality in the handling of the the raw material and the process influence the the psychological not and all effect it's the question deal with synthetic compounds and the person is the chemist or to deal with natural compounds in the
25:11
person is the botanist I'm curious what is it about the chemical compounds or is it about plants I for example if in any manufacturer of LSD and forgive me I'm not a chemist but and what does it make a difference in the quality of LSD if you go through the and if you grow motor corn and and you can you get a gotta mean and you go the organic route and you you know if I don't know you for example if you
25:42
planting seasonal and and all that sort of stuff or you take a something and you synthesize it completely from from some machine old process I you know does does the the psychological effect differ from one way to another I think I understand the question namely does he handling the source the maker of the chemical the isolator of the chemical influenced the action of the chemical if that's the question the answer is very simple the
26:12
material DMT for example I think was specifically mentioned is identical if adequately purified whether it's made synthetically in the laboratory or whether it's isolated from a plant there she is no difference in its pharmacology if it's made by a sloppy or an indifferent chemist or is isolated from plant by a person who's not particularly careful or diligent about purification the pharmacology can be radically different but a pure compound from whatever source is the same as a pure
26:44
compound from whatever other cells on the other hand I have to remind everyone here that I have come across people who had taken a compound that they believed on you had been made by sacha and the idea that it had been created by sacha apparently influenced the effect as far
27:15
as they were concerned it was much better than the same compound made by anybody else so I so I would say suggestion sometimes has a very strong effect when I make compounds in the laboratory I always keep good classical music on the radio you made a lot of compounds during your work and the question to you too is for me what is the most important compound for you and
27:45
what is the most important compound for you Sasha well as far as my own point of view to me the most important compound is a compound I'm currently exploring and trying to find the activity of with one or two minor exceptions I do not repeat a compounds I know to be active despite their having very interesting activity I'd like to keep my liver relatively clean so I can explore new things and find new activity so really to me the most interesting compound is the ones I'm currently
28:16
working with as I mean that may not be true with them but I would say that the next compound is the most important bit to say or to ask if not which is the most interesting but which might be your favourite child that's comparable yes yes that actually I do have some
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favorites but I think the diplomatic answer is the next compound when taking MDMA and there has to be M there has being observed that there is some the jaar jaar annoying and the question is if there's a Swiss and psychologist Samuel Whitmer who am who said that this would be because of the inner tensions of a person or because of a compound and the question is if this could be true or if your experience has told you something different maybe well to me I
29:20
was exploring MDMA I always had the jaw clenching and also had a sort of a lateral eye nystagmus and these were two the side effects that were quite consistent and I this is why when I would we have another person using MDMA as an experiment never let them drive whether eyes are still not totally stable and the simplest solution to the jaw clenching is to give them a damp wash rag and that the teeth rest on the on the on the wash rag and go on with
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the experiment so these two side effects are quite common let the psychedelics have visual effects a lot of psychedelics have a lot of audio effects do you know do you have any experience about our factory effects effects on the sense of smell please the only I can think of only the one effect on smell that I'm aware of and this is the enhancement of smells of just in
30:22
general sense of the enhancement of the senses I remember one of my very early experiments with a close analogue of mescaline I saw a flower sitting on my on my coffee bench and it was an extraordinarily enhanced color and texture and smell the smell was strongly enhanced the interesting extension of that is another very close analog which I subsequently synthesized I was very curious as what was inside the flower
30:52
the first flower with these mescaline very close mescaline compound I had to hold in reverence and and really almost thought it was God given the second compound I had very similar smells but I was curious where they came from and I tore the flower apart which told me that these may both be psychedelics but they influence your behavior in quite a different way so I that from that I learned to respect one my attitude
31:23
toward the sense of vision sense of smell the sense of texture it's very much wrongly be modified in its expression by which drug it happens to be and one little suffix to this is having worked about 60 years in a chemical laboratory about the last ten years I have lost my sense of smell but my it was a loss but it was a very interesting 50 years with it well I I can do a lot of the smelling for him she comes
31:55
syphilis tarisha by three new phenomena that's a personal thing I think the girl yeah yeah best setting for MDMA sit-ins I think other people who go to raves and take MDMA would say the best set and setting is to be with friends and and with dance music and etc
32:31
it's a personal choice before before we knew that a repeated use of MDMA that causes the effect to drop off I took it once a week for about a little over a year and for me it was my writing drug right yeah and I wrote this as before
33:06
MDMA was illegal don't worry and I took it because it it opened up the parts of me that were creative so instead of a dance floor for me it was a quiet room and my computer so it depends on the person oh excuse me I should add that due to this overuse which I now know is overuse
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of MDMA I cannot get any effect from MDMA I don't know whether it's going to be forever or not but I just make so depress the present effect likely the dosage I went from 125 milligrams with 40 milligram supplement to add a year and a
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half about 250 milligrams with a hundred milligram supplement at which point my writing on P Kyle was done and I decided that that meant that dosage level meant I should stop entirely which which I did for several years but interestingly incidentally there has been no cross set and loss of sensitivity to new materials
34:50
but but now when the question is asked at colleges or universities about how often one can take MDMA after pointing out that it's it's difficult to be sure that you have real MDMA I tell people that bought more often than four times a year is a mistake so at least I learned
35:22
something of use to other people do you consider this to be a rule for all substances or exclusively Brandi MA this seems to be specifically an MDMA effect and most people discover after using it maybe every month or something like that they ask why as the effect seemed to be hard to find again an interesting addition to this and a paper appeared I
35:53
believe in the Journal of addictive drugs it appeared just as this this month as a matter of fact in which a report was made by a group of people I believe it was in England of a patient they had who had taken 41,000 pills of MDMA and they said this evidence of both mental and physical deterioration from MDMA but in reading the paper it turns out he had been using heroin cocaine alcohol and number of
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other drugs in the same incredible abusive volume but the the goal was to condemn MDMA and that was the only word that was used in the title so there is a touch of politics in the scientific literature this gentle person recommends Christmas Eve as the ideal setting for taking MDMA Christmasy as the ideal
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setting depends on your vision to Christmas are you aware of any sorry it is turned here on the front left hey reduce and you recommend I presume these
37:27
are the optical isomers that were being talked about I have explored both the the R and the S isomer and my conclusion the are isomer is more potent than the s and yet in my bottom line conclusion is that neither they are nor the S is as good as the rasa make it doesn't make much sense but that is that's what I observed but definitely they are isomers are more potent others Arizona is definitely potent as I see so male it's
38:01
the girl okay so my question is not about chemistry I just wanted to know if you if you could say what what is your master meaningful or deepest inside you you had using psychedelics I mean spiritual inside philosophical inside something like that I think one of the most dramatic experiences I had us on the East Coast traveling and I
38:31
used it when I was visiting some people I knew the compound of the exploring of the time as to seee and it's one of the situations where I can mix myself into social environment with a little bit stoned and get away with it at this time I couldn't because what I happened is the material I thought would be like a normal psychedelic which very often for me lets me give ideas or explore questions that I find interesting but if
39:02
I don't particularly care to answer the question I can go on to another question to see II would not allow me to drop the question unanswered and for about three or four hours I had to split from the friends I was with and go into a quiet room and come to an answer to the question that I was trying to avoid and I was rewarded by being asked another question which I could not avoid without answering a totally exhausted with fascinating for hours that was the most
39:33
battles where very remarkable experience to seee is a fascinating compound can you hear me yeah I would like to ask what is your favorite set and setting for a for a session with psilocybin I think that for Sasha and and me for psilocybin or for any other a good material our favorite setting is our bedroom and just as being a pleasant
40:03
place to listen to music if you have some funny story from MDMA station if this is possible to say in public from your story the most meaningful MDMA sessions for me were during a time I was acting as a lay therapist and exploring the dark side of
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people who wish to evolve their spiritual life MDMA is is an extraordinary compound for therapy or for increasing one's awareness of oneself and the components of one's own psyche and each person each client is completely different it's a complete planet and universe all by itself
41:13
so these these experiences that that the client is going through especially when they are trying to confront their own what Jung calls the shadow this is some of the the most terrifying work that a human being can go through and when they come through it when they have confronted their shadow and begin to understand it the feeling that I have
41:45
had is of having watched and participated in a real miracle and I put as much as I could of that kind of experience in the second book I'm interested in working with people that are approaching death and I'm wondering if there are any substances that help those that help some people realize that they are more than their physical body because the people that don't realize that are the ones that are so afraid I
42:17
believe that that Huxley when he was dying wanted to have LSD I think it would depend upon the the response of the individual person to different psychedelics for myself I would not choose LSD because it is a great the drug but it is not my ally as much as masculine so it would depend on on the
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person what do you think about the fact that speakers in this event are mostly men and also visitors well it's it's very interesting but I I don't I don't
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think it is that important I I could point out that there are no speakers who are Native American and there are no speakers who are black and there are other missing people too and the some of the the potentially best speakers are not going to be open in public about their use of these drugs
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they are probably professionals and they have too much to lose if the information is misused so the only answer to that is to repeal most of the drug laws yeah adding to it okay I having a question according to MDMA you said you used it in therapy I just hear that you when you're taking after that you had MDMA you're taking to CP to fix the
44:37
experiences yes all the 2cb after MDMA in a therapeutic session never never use them together but I did quite a few sessions with MDMA first followed by a not very high amount of 2cb and the only disadvantage is that it makes a very long therapeutic day but
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the MDMA serves as an opener a way of opening the doors inside and the 2cb which is a true psychedelic it releases the emotions and the archetypes so it is a very exhausting experience but it can be extraordinarily effective this gentleman here yeah the question is if
45:45
an ingestion of tryptophan might lead to a method ization into a form of DMT in the body maybe if ingested together with Harmelin and this to an amount that you can have in psychedelic experience tryptophan itself will not be active in a mental sense unless there is a specific vehicle for transporting it across the blood-brain barrier with a few exceptions amino acids just do not go into the brain as such without a transport Ally so if you're using a tryptophane derivative as a precursor to
46:17
a tryptamine derivative it would probably have to be metabolized to that crypt amine before it's psychoactive so to me it's simpler chemistry to start with the trick to me then with the tryptophan tryptophan tryptophan their energy main thing stripping the question is if do B can be used in psychotherapy and if not if this might be because of its length and what's its toxic level do B is a fascinating compound I'll grant that to
46:49
begin with do B is extremely long-lived psychedelic it's a situation of using a chemical and 25 24 hours later you're still aware of its action and as such I don't think it'd be the right timing for a therapeutic application the there is an interesting point about do be though I discovered some 30 40 years ago and that is we were playing around in the Lord's radiation lab where we had access
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to cyclotrons and all kinds of beautiful equipment and this is back in the marvelous days when the there was rationality in the academic world and they said play with whatever you want just when you go be sure the machines are turned off and the outside door is locked and so we made a deal be labeled with bromine 77 and with bromine 82 the radioactive materials and had the the pleasure of injecting them intravenously because their amounts we used were very small amount and lying on a gamma
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detector we could run the person over we were the people over the detector and on the oscilloscope would appear a scan of the body and we found to our surprise the first organ once you intravenously had some liver there but primarily the interesting the target organ was not the brain but the lung and the lung built up a sizable amount of radioactivity with almost none in the brain so we were toying with the
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humorous possibility that the mind is located in the lung but it didn't work out that way with patients we found that once it had began dropping level in the lung the level in the mind started climbing as rain rains right the mighty brain and this I think is the reason it is so slow Longley is very slow coming on it goes to the lung and then is metabolized to something that then goes to the brain and the radioactivity level of the brain never got too high it's a very potent
48:52
compound but it lasted for quite a long while I never did work out what the chemical metabolite was I knew it was not bromide ion because I kept collecting urine samples and there was no bromide ion in the urine but I never did find out what the metabolite is clearly DOB is metabolized to something fascinating by the lung and that is the fascinating active compound and I don't know what it is the question was inland and if alcohol together used with gob
49:22
and I think after there was done an alcohol test and it showed no alcohol and the question was if the OB could somehow decrease the level of alcohol in the blood maybe or so what alcohol ethanol what alcohol beer whiskey well I think if you - I think if you took alcohol without do being waited awhile you'd have no alcohol if you a matter of timing I I don't know the answer I don't
49:53
think there should be a almost nothing influences the metabolic this disposal of alcohol so I suspect there's no connection not at all sure I would want to - and me at the same time right and and to finish off and what what you were asking about the therapeutic use I think it that would mean a whole weekend of therapy I think that would be a little too much yeah it's not too practical excuse me if I change the subject a
50:29
little bit do you have any experiences with a DD without hyperactivity and if yes do you know about substances which are used in therapy with the AE + DD ie do an attention deficit disorder attention deficit I don't I don't think there been any
51:03
studies you mean a use of psychedelics with a DD I not aware of any studies made of that kind if one or two use a psychedelic as a substitute for whatever is being used clinically Ritalin or that type of thing you would have achieved one thing that I think is remarkable and that is to achieve it in clinical use for a psychedelic and with our current
51:36
Anathem disregard of the possible clinical use of psychedelics I don't think this is going to be very soon seen but that experiencie related about the the drug that insisted on having the question/answer might be an antithesis to that'd be an interesting thing to explore I don't know but to be a that was to seee to see II was the compound that's
52:08
duty is not an unfair to me no Sofia ethylamine sit disorder the Monroe tapes um the brain synchronization from the Monroe Institute they've been using that for forty years and they found it to be very successful and it's a non drug this is just using sound therapy okay one question concerning this setting when you test the new substance I guess you have some expectations with all your
52:39
knowledge what the substance might be like how do you do you can you differentiate between what is from your what you experience when you expect a ssin what is how do you eliminate the placebo effects in your trials if I if I understand the question is how you Mishi eight the exploring of a new compound and not put a prejudicial bias on what you're looking for I do this primarily
53:10
by acknowledging that a new compound has I've never met it before and it's never met me before and I don't know if it's going to be a psychedelic or a convulsant or a cause long-term magnesia I do not know so I approach the stranger with extraordinary caution and the simple mathematics is that if a small amount is an appropriate amount to start with of an unknown it takes know very small amount of additional material to start one thousandth that amount of
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material and so I start at a level that I am confident will not have any activity and if it is going to be active I have no knowledge of what this stranger is going to have in the way of activity I do not like to be surprised by unexpected types of activity and so I come up in very small increments in very low levels I will double every maybe three or four or five days and I often will run to three materials at the same on sequential days to have different
54:12
materials in me when you do find some sort of a clue of something that might be active what usually happens to me is I get a feeding Oh something like hair is rising on my back of my neck boo this may be an active level that's goodness yeah at which point I dropped down to a smaller increase with each experimental level and spaced them further apart because there are things such as convulsions that also at low levels give you the same thrill of hair rising on the back of your neck and I do not wish
54:44
to discover new like new convulsions and I have uncovered a couple of seizure drugs so I keep phenobarbital at hand which is a very excellent anticonvulsant an interesting way if you are ever in the edge of a can what might be a convulsive intoxication there's a psychological process to follow that I've found in both cases to be very valuable just never complete a thought it's like like marching across the bridge if you think something to its
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conclusion you may have your seizure so nine-tenths of the way to your conclusion change the question and search another question out just never complete a thought and keep moving in different ways with a thought process with no consummation of thought and I've never had a consummation of seizure and in about 20 minutes the fina barb has taken control and I've had note I've had no problems in that direction but that early glow of a convulsant and the early glow of an active psychedelic are very hard to distinguish between each other
55:49
but when you just say I do not pursue the via former go to another material yeah have you any method to remember the ideas coming to you during the trip to argue ideas yeah if you're asking is there a way to remember ideas that come to you yes we keep notes in an interesting extension on that is the
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fact that a true psychedelic does not give you a period of amnesia whereas many materials that are called hallucinogenics or give you a loser nations often are lost in a fuzzy amnesia state there are a number of chemicals kepala mean like things that will give you fantastic visions but you don't remember them a very good friend a psychiatrist who very much wanted to try scopolamine and was Kepala mean which is
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a loosen the gin in its own rights but it is blessed with a total amnesia of what goes on in one point where I was his babysitter for this experiment he always was Kepala mean try a tenth of a dose to make sure he's not hypersensitive to it then her full dose each which is a couple three milligrams at one point he was walking across the living room and walked into a door on the far side of the living room but she thought was open and when I talked to him at that point I asked why did you walk too into the
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door and he said I thought she was a very attractive girl who had gone through their complete amnesia of the fact that he'd never remember any of this later and this particular case I time I was in Berkeley I made the mistake of letting him drive home after he had been slept had been sleeping for several hours and he drove across the San Francisco Bay Bridge and as he was driving across the bridge he one of his medical students one of his medical medical school allies was sitting in the front seat next to him and every time he
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turned to talk to him the fellow would get into the backseat of the car and every time he'd look in the backseat of the car the fellow would disappear so he turned on the radio I turned the radio with playing some girl singer I forget who was anyway very he had all of her records but he did not have that record yeah and and so he wanted to turn up the volume toward the end of the record to find out what the record was Betsy Smith yes mr. Smith and he found the radio had not been on so there was a
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smell of hallucination still going on and very wisely he got off the bridge on the far side in San Francisco and took a taxi home so I got this whole story from him and I asked him later how long did it take him to come to a normal place to which his response I thought was fascinating he said how do you know so the case of a amnesia is a very treacherous thing to work with in these materials because you must have a babysitter and and when you have this aspect of amnesia as a property the drug
59:01
I get rid of the drug

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