Abortion Debate: Stephanie Gray vs. Dr. Fraser Fellows

Abortion Debate: Stephanie Gray vs. Dr. Fraser Fellows

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00:00
I'm very pleased to welcome you all here in tonight's debate on the question of abortion harms women I will let you send a special welcome to students joining us from various medical schools across the country abortion can be a tradition so I'd like to thank you all in advance for your respectful participation in this event the universal charger or administration has asked us to remind you that the university's policy on the disruption of meetings applies to this
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event there'll be time for questions at the end of debate before I invite our moderator I just want to note a few things you should have received a feedback form when you came in please fill it out against debate and get it to us as we leave the auditorium later tonight secondly this debate is being filmed finally please turn off all cell phones and pagers or put them on silent or partly to surrender we know disruptions during this in art our moderator for the evening is dr.
01:02
Bouchard a family decision from Calvary please join me in welcoming him to the stage to introduce himself as well as well as our speakers for evening hello everybody thank you for coming and thank you Stephanie and dr. close for having this debate with us and just so you're aware dr. fellows and Stephanie did have coffee before 10:00 to discuss and prepare and I think that's a good example to all of us in kind of a spirit
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and tone that we should have when we come to something and in just like this we should be able to go for coffee with anybody else in this room regardless of their position to be able to confront each other on a human level and say you know this is my view let me hear you out and can be respectful humble in our own views and be able to listen to the other person even if you totally disagree with them and it's just in a spirit of respect and that's the way you should
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communicate individuals so I'll just go through a little bit of the rules of the debate and I'll just mention before I forget that there is a Twitter feed the hashtag is great with an a fellow's debate so please don't shout out loud but show that on Twitter as much as you'd like so I'm just going to give you a little bit of info about how things will go
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each of our debaters will have a 20 minute opening statement and will come to the podium to deliver their opening statement after that will be your cross-examination and just so you're aware the cross-examination period the other debater has the ability to ask questions and they can also interrupt opponent it's just the way that the cross-examination kidnapped them and during the cross-examination that's not the time for our audience questions
03:14
that will come a little bit later and I'll discuss that a little bit later but the cross-examination for each of them will be seven minutes and then each one have time for rebuttal for ten minutes and then they'll each have a five minute closing statement then after that won't have questions so I'm just going to give our debaters a 30-second brief intro let them do that so Stephanie great and dr. Frasier fellows in you give yourselves an intro
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here greater Bella's i'm not sufficiently i recall this from Western ideology for three to five years did my undergraduate that means graduate school and that we practicing English edges and back ecology abortions chairman
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pregnancy options my name is Stephanie gray I'm the executive director of the Canadian Centre for bioethical reporting an original email from Jewish Columbia Houston this year to the Greater Toronto Area and as director of CCRI we do a lot of Education with my colleagues to the culture about the issue of abortion and particularly my role is to present at high schools churches and universities and other institutions about abortion and where there's an interest engage in
05:23
public debates like this thank you very much so my job is to enforce time limits and I'm not very good at enforcing other things I was trained as a physician not as a bouncer so please don't make me use my muscles is that your own happening so a little further ado I am going to let I think step here and we'll first take the floor for our opening statement that will be 20 minutes
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two years after her abortion a 22 year old comments I feel like I became darker the day of my portion heavier some pure lighted part of myself died that day a 41 year old woman who had been molested in her younger years note surprisingly that at her first abortion at 18 she quote felt the loss of girl head girl hood even more than when I first had sex I think I felt a loss of
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innocence at 22 year old four years after her abortion remarked I will not forget the sound of the vacuum and how horrible it sounded the procedure was like someone was ripping and sucking of my insights I felt empty afterwards these stories are from a book that is a collection of testimonies of women who have had experiences with abortion and
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if this is not a pro-life book this is a pro-choice book and this book is introduced by a psychotherapist by name of Kathy ethylic who worked for years at Planned Parenthood and at the time of writing the introduction very much embraced the issue of abortion and she says in her introduction for thirteen years at a Planned Parenthood clinic in a non private psychotherapy practice I have helped women through all stages of this often difficult experience the
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decision-making the surgery the period after abortion I have seen a wide range of reactions she said for relief and fairly calm appearance and acceptance to sadness and confusion to guilt and suicidal depression this is a pro-choice woman who worked for 13 years at Planned Parenthood and then worked with women psychotherapist in her own clinic and she admits seeing women who were plagued
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with guilt and suicidal depression she goes on to say I become increasingly aware of abortions complexity and the inadequacies simple formulations I believe she says it is for political reasons that those of us who support a woman's right to choose have been reluctant to acknowledge that emotional turmoil can both accompany and follow an abortion this is someone who favors abortion acknowledging that for some women emotional turmoil accompanies
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their abortions tonight's debate challenges us to consider the following resolve the de Bourgh ssin is harmful to women well is it I'd like us to societies for a moment I'd like us to set aside the studies for a moment and instead I'd like us to enter into a little flawed experiment imagine that you were a doctor and a patient comes into your office with signs of pregnancy so you do a pregnancy test the test results come back positive when he was a physician
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see that positive pregnancy test do you hang your head in your hands and think oh boy there is something seriously wrong with my patient or do you look at that positive pregnancy test at least register well her body is functioning in a healthy manner it's functioning in a normal way now imagine is a physician is every being in your office here at the emergency room working around there and some woman presents at the emergency room the signs of a miscarriage so you
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do an exam is the test of time and indeed you come to the conclusion that she's having a miscarriage what's your first reaction to her tear-stained face be well you know it was baby anyways and its really what's supposed to happen when a woman's pregnant miscarriage is the natural normal and result of pregnancy would that be your reaction or would it be to acknowledge something went wrong here now I ask you to think about this little
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thought experiment because I think it appeals to our intuitions we know that pregnancy but our desired or not is a normal healthy function of a woman's body miscarriage is not it's a sign of something gone wrong as opposed to a sign of something going right here's why that's important when we try and figure out whether abortion harms women we need to acknowledge that it is a surgical
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procedure there's not medically indicated there is no medical necessity and yet we're doing a medical procedure that will have consequences as does all surgery for a woman who has no pathology for a woman whose body is functioning right so it seems to me that if we ask is abortion harmful to women the obvious answer would be yes the right house is lots of
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obvious for some if you escape either an abortion it didn't hurt me physically it didn't harm me emotionally so therefore you're wrong at abortion hurts women and for somebody who would say that I heard me over bottom because I cannot make a woman feel something that she does not feel but nor can that woman make another woman not feel something that she does feel nor can that woman look at another woman and say you didn't have the physical consequence that she actually
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does so does abortion harm all women no at least from the perspective woman some will say it did not harm me but in a basic level abortion is most certainly harmful to some women and that's the case that I will be presenting this evening what I'm going to do is look at the physical harm of abortion as well as the emotional harms of abortion there's a TED talk by author
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simon Sinek and Aceves it gives a TED presentation hut on health matters or abortion related matters but on business and his TED talk is about a book he wrote which is entitled start with Y and this premise is that good organizations and good businesses start with Y to help their employees and all those who are involved really understand what they're involved with because if you understand why it's easier to accept the what and
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the how now I put that up because when I get into bringing forth the evidence about how abortion harms women physically and how abortion and are some women emotionally I'm going to start each of those sections with why I want to consider in towards a just basic mile per biology in order to understand that the evidence I will then be presenting makes sense in light of the why so why would or ssin harm a woman physically
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such as with breast cancer a very controversial point I acknowledge for someone to me so let's start with why let's look at the biology one thing isn't disputed is that a risk factor for breast cancer is exposure to estrogen it is well accepted that if a woman starts from menstrual cycles very young or they go on very late before she goes into menopause if she delays
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having her first child if she has no children and if she doesn't breastfeed her children all of these things are factors which contribute to her risk for breast cancer why because of estrogen exposure in each of those situations the woman will have more mental cycles and therefore greater exposure to estrogen that's not a controversial claim to make even though the abortion breast cancer link is a controversial thing to me so let's stay
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for a moment thinking about why it could be possible that there could be a link here so starting with this idea that there's a there's a link between estrogen exposure and breast cancer now let's consider the body of a woman who's pregnant when a woman is pregnant her estrogen levels skyrocket in a form of estrogen called estradiol and this causes the cells in our breast to multiply at a very rapid rate at that point in her first pregnancy the conscious cells within a woman's breast
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are type 1 and type 2 lobules these do not become type 3 or type 4 modules until the thirty second week of pregnancy now here is why that is significant type 1 and type 2 modules are where cancers arise type 3 and type 4 modules are mature and they are resistant to carcinogens so that is significant significant because the vast majority of abortions
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have been long before the 30 second meet of pregnancy when those type 1 and type 2 modules will have their after multiplying and dividing will now become type in type 4 lobules but you unnaturally cut that pregnancy off and you leave those breast cells in a very vulnerable state and only in the type 1 and type 2 category where they're again they are more likely to develop to cancer so that
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is significant then when we look at studies because I realize it's one thing to say well one would it be possible for a woman to have an increased risk of breast cancer if she has an abortion but is the evidence there to actually back that out and I certainly believe that you can't just make a claim you want to back it up with evidence well what I'm holding in my hand is a list of epidemiological studies induced abortion and breast cancer risk all the way up to 2013 and as far back is 1957 there are a total of 73 studies and
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there are 57 which have a positive correlation between abortion and breast cancer and 34 of these are statistically significant 34 bees are statistically significant show me this link between abortion and breast cancer not only is there that physical risk with abortion but there's the physical risk of preterm birth in other words aborting your first child could cause harm to your second let's
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again start with why how could this be possible before we look at the evidence well when one is pregnant her cervix is tightly closed so for that surgical abortion to happen it has to be forced open that can result in infection when when surgical instruments go in it can result in a cervical incompetence so that when she's pregnant in subsequent pregnancies that cervix which you can or spoken in the first pregnancy is now going to open sooner rather than at the end of the pregnancy for birth it's
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going to open earlier and so she could have a miscarriage or preterm birth and so the next child is going to have the consequences that come from a preterm birth such as cerebral palsy well let's look at the studies that back this up there were 20 studies between 1973 and 1999 in seven different countries that point was to typically significant increased risk of preterm births and abortion published a new spectryx and gynecology Journal of Epidemiology through it was published 122 studies
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within obstetrics and gynecology journal the next journal was Journal of Epidemiology and the New England Journal of Medicine those are three of the 22 journals that had published studies which show statistically significant risk of preterm birth as a result of a woman previously having had an abortion then the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons in 2008 published a study in which they reported between 1980 and 2005 the United States preterm birth
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rate rose by 43 percent black women compared to non black women have a triple risk of preterm birth and four times the risk of extreme preterm birth in 2004 38.2% of the United States surgical abortions were performed on black women who comprise only 12.5 percent of the population among females they comprise only 12.5% and yet they
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had 38.2 percent of the abortions and there's a very high and growing rate of abortions a sort of preterm birth not only was women in general States but amongst black women so that study said induced abortion is an important risk factor for preterm birth when you would think about the consequences or the possible outcomes for abortion at the farm women they're not only physical but they're also
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emotional but again I want to start with why why would it be possible for abortion to hurt a woman emotionally well I mean it's important to consider for a moment if a woman have her appendix removed would she think she felt empty the way to go to that cold at the beginning after their abortions talked about feeling empty when they feel that innocence had been removed from them if their appendix was removed the wake of one woman mentioned shoot up her innocence had been taken from her as
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a result of having abortion I don't think so why let's start with why because removing your appendix is removing a human part but removing the preborn child is removing a human being that's a very important distinction and that would ultimately be why abortion with harm some good and emotionally because of what the act of abortion does robbing them of their preborn children now some
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people say well it's not a human yet well let's look at what every ology tests tell us about when life begins more goursaud have offered a number of different embryology tacks used by medical students across North America and their tests before we are born as human development is a continuous process that begins when a new site for the female is fertilized by a sperm from a male Langton embryology says the development of a human begins at fertilization that was well accepted
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typically the beans between were to sexually begin their lives at fertilization and yet there are some people who will say no life begins before or after fertilization well that's considerable three options we've got before we have app and then we have after we know life can't begin before fertilization because sperm in a man's body by itself will not grow into a fetus infant Aubertine neither will an egg and a woman's body by itself and yet when we come together at fertilization the genetic information that
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distinguishes this young child from all of us the literature and not the infant stage not the fetal stage but was determined at fertilization she can't trace her beginning back to the sperm of the a but she can trace her beginning back to the one self embryo sometimes we have a hard time imagining how something so small could exist as each of us our individual human beings with our unique genetic DNA how could that be well I think in analogy help us understand that is an analogy to this
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Polaroid picture this is a picture that if we had it imagine we have taken again now it was just a white card what we would call it a picture we were to say for white cargo to be imported into a camera you snap before when the card comes out do you see the picture right away no you see brown black smudges but everything about the image that will develop in a few moments is capturing the instant you take before up it just needs time to develop before I even put the cap the picture in you have a potential image but the moment you take
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the picture you have an image with great potential before fertilization you have a potential human but at fertilization you have a human with great potential the way the fetus the infant and the young child are humans with great potential I'd like us to think for a moment do we believe in human rights if the answer is yes the next question is who gets Human Rights if the answer is humans the next question is what about back human in the center there and some of these people is not human and so life
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her parents and if her parents are human that logically follows she's human and someone we see if it's not alive and my question is is it growing if that one cell area was growing she's alive and we know from one's Delta to 4 to 8 to 16 and so forth by virtue of a girl she's alive by virtue of having human parents she's human and therefore if we believe in human rights then the one cell embryo has the same rights as you or me since life begins at fertilization building
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act of abortion something which happens after fertilization is going to end that life and the fasting the abortion procedure proved that if we look here we see an on week abortion the child is sucked out we see the hands in the feet we look here dr. fellows disillusions up to 23 weeks in six days we see what portion looks like here let's see these images come to life to be able to make a decision about the effects of abortion
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on the child and the woman this is graphic whywould or shin heart wounded emotionally because it does that to her child that is why it harms women emotionally not just because I say so but because studies have shown that in Ferguson at all in the British Journal of Psychiatry a study was reported in 2008 the evidence is consistent with the view it said that abortion may be associated with a small increase in risk
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of mental disorders then in 2011 a study by Coleman published in the british british journal of psychiatry was a meta-analysis of 22 published studies 36 effects bringing together data of 900,000 women with participants of oles 200,000 that had experienced abortion her results nearly 10% of the incidence of all mental health problems was shown to be directly attributable to abortion
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we'll explain more in my government Malbec dr. fellows up first 20-minute boat in hours then this abortion helpful endorphin rush apartment just give you a brief description of my interpretation of this question the next few minutes the seeking abortion obviously basically under on the one hand childbearing is an
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event that they aspire to or have already experienced seeking an abortion is the last resort of a desperate woman desperation is the circumstance at arrival in to accomplish an abortion documentation over the years has confirmed that women will obtain an abortion whether or not it's legal or safe the lecar Institute in the United States of America publishes on a regular basis pregnancy outcomes over the past
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in ten years they have shown worldwide that there are both more to provide many pregnancies per year of these 4.2 million of them and and elective abortion half of the abortions occur in countries where it's legal and have the horses are illegal the difference is that in countries where it's illegal and the incidence of illness or death is much higher for instance resulting in
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2003 of 77 thousand deaths directly attributed to the abortions and the little countries and much more morbidity related to these infection hemorrhage and infertility and this is because the abortions of course were carried out by non skilled providers back street emotions between 1980 and 1989 the waiting governor's Romania a husband and wife team as the GTS Keys unwittingly
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showed what happens when you deny when a choice abortions and contraception during that 10 years were van this was enforced by the government and women were persecuted for seeking or having abortions this resulted in maternal mortality compared to the rest of your phone you can see that the abortion rate per hundred thousand live births in all of the countries near or around Romania
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remaining under 20 except for Russia in Romania during that ten-year interval was 30 times however higher these are maternal deaths related to criminal abortions even in our own province of Ontario we showed what happens when access course legally or safe abortion occurs having be previously denied subsequent to Rogi way in 1969 in that state
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oh the limit of Ontario were also allowed to see abortion having previously denied this service or choice Colonel Morgan ADEA mortality fell by 50% in the province within two years and he has access to legal abortion what I've said thus far our facts are the facts of denying women access to abortion worldwide countrywide and province wide in our own backyard the
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facts don't lie abortion is a necessary requisite to providing health care to women to deny the service is to expose them to death and injury abortion is not their first choice prevention was their first choice however this is for many different reasons not always possible the focus on preventing pregnancy seem to be a more productive Thank You Dark Elves so will now have
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the period of cross-examination so each of them will be able to take seven minutes to ask questions of the other person so we'll start with dr. fellows and you have seven minutes to do the cross-examination after my first question stephanie is really really us to the information that you're providing our audience about when I was
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disappointed that you started off with issue of breast man's American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists Schneider of systematic cultures have said um without any question that there is no association breast cancer and this is a time to vlog question which was presented I thought it was no longer under discussion
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okay so I would just have to ask me I know you can give us some meta analyses of individuals who looked over the question but when such a house where groups as Snider's the International Society of official status ruled by hitting American College have all denied but there's NES message finish this is this is a very weak argument to end in
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your watering obviously breast cancer this is a very concerning cancer for women anyway name that up is as an emotional void attract can't argue with the huge numbers well I have right in front of me each objection the American Cancer Society has and a response to it about how the studies they rely on our fraudulent I
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want to give you one of your specific objections I can give you my specific response but I guess my question back to you would be what's your team on hormone replacement therapy do you think it's a problem Janice here hormonal vision therapy is unquestionably a visible performance that women in menopause see
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is not without risk was a very big study was done internationally Women's Health Initiative was showed that only a visitor therapy this six through ten thousand 10,000 both groups the incidence of breast cancer at home on the base majority was exercising this hormone
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replacement purpose France asking the question was too expensive no my correct in understanding that you would you see the risks to it than purse danger okay but my point that is for 20 years it was research pointing out to that and it was rejected until past decade so my point is if you say oh well that there are authorities that are are saying that there's no link between abortion and breast cancer well that's what was once being said about HRT and now it is being considered in question about it so that
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that's one of my responses yeah well the doctor said he has shown the group a great official unquestionably looking at it carefully you might careless carefully she says it wasn't therapy until this Women's Health Initiative once the Women's Health Initiative occurred there was no question that the solutions of an ecologist working this and not making sure that the information they were even deter patients was correct now we need
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them the information that this there are yes because listen to regular people miss here they are smart as abortion and breast cancer Marianne disagrees this was another low risk associate proportion and president do you agree that estrogen exposure is amiss super high risk factor for developing breast
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cancer I would say that we don't fully understand about physiology the best answer obviously there was an association with a woman's production of estrogen in breast cancer just like there is an association progesterone and testosterone investment some breast cancers have been sensitive or estrogen receptors some have progesterone receptors some have testosterone receptors so all of these hormones are
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endogenous but whether or not so if you're saying that abortion causes breast cancer actually the pregnancy so the the estrogen levels fall so one more question relates to some of the questions more commentary on incompetent cervix generation servicing association with having an abortion
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once again these questions have been carefully looked at by various groups and there is no evidence that who has an abortion has any higher than sickness public comment service and how that service go is one where they learned this from leasing the pregnancy because the service isn't able to contain the pregnancy until it's viable there's no other incident literature for
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this beginner it's sort of appealing to people in society not saying there's no residual abortion because we game there's mr. grabby in part there's risk to having a procedure or medical that it will certainly carry risks we discussed this this is our direction legal damage
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leaders in this small portion of them these are desert it's enough skilled providers however can avoid East know-nothings with a wisdom we're visiting here right now thank you so the next section of cross-examination will be darker Stephanie able to ask questions of dr. touch does it go Lois dr. fellows I just to go through a fact check was I correct in my Steven that
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you do abortions up to 23 decency space and are the pictures have showed an accurate representation of what you see in what you do I actually look at the patient system I've seen before appreciate our pictures if you have pictures that you see that's what they are that's basically what this involved in actually visualize things like that that's what happens right soon as trooper must be was the same injuries lost of even when she says what we're
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seeing what to do so when you do a D and E what's involved in the process the woman first of all calls a clinic and asks that tells me tells the Secretary must is she comes to the minute and she is screaming by nurse goes over history as we physical hazard answer questionnaire and she would sing social
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worker the excursion or bush she sliced there's a first rate and then she has her cervix prepared before that's basically a routine she has her abortion this Boulevard links she has an abortion you say this size of fetus a long term for young one would be what the size of some of the babies you abort look like
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and when they come out do they come out in town no they generally don't come out intact they can open pieces pieces of what they are more severe assaults useful more salvation where they are so what would you say this is not in terms of the fetal model in my hand but what a more saline from the woman what
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is it what kind of thing is delpan Sofia cystoscopy says I'm wondering what kind of fetus is a human fetus okay so do you believe in human rights what about the human fetuses rights well our society has decreed that the penis does not have rights until the team by brother till the DG's tells
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mormonism Leonardo were no regulations in our society say penis has any rights the mother is she has the race does she have the rights to kill her human infant after birth so what is the difference between the human infant making a fetus other than age what is more than the other double it
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isn't the theist mount born because of how old it is uber elegance we need earmuffs lies for two years but because we're Ponies for nine months so wouldn't be matter of birth either needed inherently to the age of human so you're saying whether someone can be killed or not is based on whether they're born or not correct okay and birth is generally based on how old we are other than factors like premature
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delivery but you have to be up nine months before you are bred so to get to 9 months implies that we started clogging the passage of time nine months before correct so therefore aren't we implying that we believe we believe the life began nine months ago how would we not believe that our society and most societies agree
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that life begins at birth and at 24 25 and 26 meets the penis is still in the mother's body not born why would you avoid then we have decided as internationally and not we not London Ontario Ontario internationally we have decided that penis is is actually in the states they go further than that but you've decided that if he is will not be
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aborted after 23 weeks six days unless there are some major problems with these which means they will free even though there are no laws in most countries the most modern companies governing blended abortions visit least our resuscitating these of 2014 that's why you know portion size is the chances of an impact survival are slim less than 20 1860 will
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you board a healthy fetus at 20 weeks yes for any reason the mother has to want to have that emotional capacity so regardless of the woman's motivation whatever her reason we will abort the fetus at 20 weeks we would not we would not condone abortions for sex selection okay then you will forget her what if a
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woman is pregnant with a fetus decibel female and has Down syndrome and she actually wants a child with Down syndrome but doesn't want a female child are you saying you won't reward it because her motivation is to get rid of the female this is a state election but that same fetus if her motivation was Down syndrome you wouldn't worry so the only difference is the motivation of the
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mother now the fetus is that correct so why then would you object to a staggered abortion because our society does not condone that when we are what I could wear when you talk about a full report basically where we are conducting the business of our society doing abortions is not something that one is that having to be doing but they recognize it as a need we all have
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things that we do they don't necessarily want to do you would and particularly in a profession like that because Russians Thank You Stephanie for that cross-examination the next section will be a rebuttal where each of our debaters will be able to take 10 minutes to revise and present any other arguments in so as I said a few seconds ago providing abortion services is not
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something that is easy to do we all innately relate to being as I said women one of the joys that women anticipate as a moment is usually is having a baby at some point in their lives and so we see people we see women coming to our clinic a child or her child were aspired a child and their vital cells in an untenable position and these untenable
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positions I could list a million untenable positions I've been doing this for many years and I can give you a million stories about women who have had situations that have forced them into wanting to have an abortion and statistics don't lie the information that I showed you is repeated year after year new year as far as the total number of pregnancies in the world the total number of portions each year in the same
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every year half of them attachés works legal half of them in countries where it's illegal you need to provide a safe abortion or you stand by and watch women being victimized having criminal abortions in either dying or becoming ill or in the case where in the Romanian situation that I showed you a very unwitting study that the Chesky subjected the population of Romania to where they denied the contraception and abortion and they ended up having a
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maternal mortality rate those 30 times higher than in a European country morbidity rate the Disney that didn't even talk about and the phenomenon that I convention which is Romanian skin children where the children women kidney of the abortions have their childhood basically discarded them asleep they came of age when they could eat them around and that's somebody else look after them so he really ate abortion is not something that one is proud of but
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providing a safe abortion is something to be proud of and I will continue to do abortions as long as the Canadian public is wanting this procedure to be offered to them and the latest statistics on acceptance is the seventy five percent of the Canadian population lean in a woman's right to change the Canadian Society and decides that this is not the case and they want to criminalize abortion then obviously this posture
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will okay thank you you didn't use all your time - that's okay we'll move along so step in you have ten minutes for your rebuttal okay let's take a lesson again from simon Sinek and start with why why do women have abortions doctor fellows said it's the last resort of a desperate woman and I don't doubt that there are many women who find themselves in desperate circumstances and it's the lack of support
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perhaps the fear of being kicked out of their home the plans they had for their career or their education getting pregnant from sexual assault any number of these can be very very difficult situations for a pregnant woman to be in but regardless of what situation she's in is what we saw on the screen a few moments ago going to unwritten a rape victim is what we saw on the screen a few moments ago make a woman who's Thor suddenly become British is what we saw
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on the screen a few moments ago going to turn a woman's frog of a partner into a prince I don't think so we need to be concerned about women but we have to ask ourselves why do they want the abortion and once we identify why what we realized abortion isn't actually going to give them what they need which is support the ability to finish school the counseling they're going to need if they're pregnant from sexual assault that trauma needs to be dealt with lots of things will trigger it but getting
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rid of the preborn child is not any get rid of the memories so if you truly care about women wouldn't we ask why they want this and actually address their problem not mask it in that cavity Natalja the psychotherapist who introduced that pro-choice book I mentioned said at the introduction I remembered woman I counseled Aaron hood she had three abortions in two years and chose to keep using the river method I recall feeling puzzled by her insistence on an obviously
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ineffective method a year later she came to my private office for psychotherapy she wanted to help she wanted help rather in leaving her battery husband it was he who had forbidden her to use any other form of birth control her situation brought home to me the importance of knowing the full context in which women make reproductive choices yeah she's right we need to know the full context but why did she find it in abortion number one why didn't she ask
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in abortion number two if this psychotherapist really cared about the patient why didn't she address the crisis the woman was in by asking why do you want the abortion rather than just giving her the abortion until years later she discovers the woman is being battered so if we truly cared about women we get to the root of their motivations now in terms of a few things dr. fellows said about illegal abortions well let's look at our country since he wants to look at
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our country maternal mortality in Canada for 1921 to 1974 as we can see it's on a steady decline that will period up until 1969 abortion was illegal now if dr. fellows premise is correct that illegal abortion translates into unsafe abortion then why is in maternal mortality high and violence illegal why it is maternal mortality going down very significantly
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all the while it's illegal so this is the evidence to refute dr. fellows claim that illegal abortion translates into unsafe abortion and I will add of course that's never safe for the preborn child so legal or illegally it's always going to be unsafe for the preborn child now let's look at the Lancet in 2010 again let's take dr. fellows premise that if you legal abortion translates into quote unquote unsafe abortion let's look at El
54:08
Salvador 1980 all the way up to 2008 we can see maternal mortality is on a steady decline and what what abortion was prohibited in El Salvador 1998 and get in 2000 and then a decade later the maternal mortality rate is going down so that refused dr. fellows claim now let's look at Chile from 1980 again to 2008 maternal mortality going down 1989 is when abortion was illegal in Chile so white dr. fellows claim we would have to
54:40
think that after 1989 when abortion was illegal maternal mortality would start going up and show like my guess what it kept going down or less we'll get : again we see abortion was made illegal in 1997 and then in 2008 maternal mortality is still on the decline but if he's right that illegal abortion means women die that we should see it going up same with Nicaragua maternal mortality continues to go down now here's what's interesting about this let's look at South Africa South Africa is where abortion was made legal in 1997 it was
55:13
made illegal and in 2008 look at that maternal mortality is going up so dr. fellows is giving false information that is refuted not by our only our own experience in Canada but is refuted by the Lancet which shows that the issue of our turn talent is not access to abortion it's about good medical care so let's talk about Romania why did so many women die because it was led that country was led
55:45
by a dictator by the name of church SQ who was a human rights violator they weren't really known for being a stellar country while Ceausescu was in charge so dr. fellows the only kind of really dramatic scenario he gives us is Romania under two Cheska's regime really that is not a country where they had good medical care at all that is a country where people's electricity was turned off at certain times of the day that was
56:17
a country where people were starving because they couldn't get food so the issue is not asked as to abortion based on to chest use track record access to abortion wanted to fixed all the other human rights violations that he was involved with with regards to dr. fellows questioning the evidence on the abortion breast cancer later as I mentioned I have all the objections here from the American
56:57
Cancer Society which interesting what did dr. fellows do he didn't give me a specific objection he just gave me the American Cancer Society they object to it well tell me why because if you tell me why they don't come up with a response but he's appealing to just an authority without actually giving reasons and I thought he would do that which is why I went to the authority and I went brought every point they needed he didn't even give me one of their points so again someone must ask your question I can go through that but that is there in terms of the studies the
57:27
evidence is here in fact there are 34 statistically significant studies what's also interesting but interesting about these studies is that a number of them make reference to a growing rate of breast cancer in China where of course there's alarming rates of abortion now please understand I'm not saying if a woman has an abortion that she's going to get breast cancer normally if she has the best cancer that she's had an abortion I'm just saying it's a risk factor based on evidence that can't be overlooked and when he
57:58
cites the fact that a certain body has said well there is no evidence again let's ask why they make that claim let's see if it's good reasoning but moreover let's not overlook the fact which is why I brought up hormone replacement therapy that historically we have a recent example of something where there was evidence showing the negative consequences and it was ignored for 20 years until finally there was this widespread acceptance and then suddenly a decrease
58:30
in the stats showing the number of women getting breast cancer so if you give something specific that it can be refused so I provided evidence dr. fellows hasn't evidence to refute that and that's what we need to consider but one final point I want to make is when like the one day that I have is it's interesting that dr. fellows won't abort what we know is that pre born human in the age category of
59:02
fetus is supposed to be age category of infant or toddler he won't abort the child if she's female if the mother's reason for killing her is female but that very same child would be killed by dr. fellows would be ripped limb by limb dr. fellows would use a crushing rotating technique as described by the medical literature in Canada for how to do deities that he does he could use a crushing rotating technique on the head
59:32
of that child he would do that if the reason was the trotted down syndrome or freezing with anything other but sex selective abortion since white or human rights get grounded in our gender with feelings of our parents thank you very much so each of our debaters will have an opportunity for five minute closing remarks and then after that we will have time for questions and the instructions for the questions at that point so we'll
01:00:14
start with dr. Stephanie keeps mentioning that I decision I am at arm's length from the decisions that are made with respect to my patients having abortions I am a in this situation I can tell you that I over the years have always make sure that I arm's length
01:00:51
from the situation of presenting receiving her counseling and the so when a patient comes to me basically she has made her decision based on that she received from a nurse and a counselor and this is true of all clinics where they come in the missions come in they fill out a questionnaire and they see a nurse with or without a counselor and maker I am not in any way
01:01:24
intimidating or influencing them as far as the decision I simply provide a safe access to a legal abortion and any time the patient from the moment she makes the phone call to the loan Commission it's actually going to have the procedure she can change her life and our experience over the years is that roughly from the time the moment actually makes the call to the actual abortion 20% of when we consider their stats what they decided as far as having
01:01:55
an abortion or not and they changed their mind and so all the ultimately the eating said that have abortion everyone who has an abortion I'm sure has some regret they have regret that they had to have an abortion some of them feel guilty about having an abortion some of them about the fact that they didn't prevent the brains genius technique one so recidivism is about 20 percent women at least experience a recurrent problem for various reasons sometimes they're being
01:02:26
battered sometimes they're just stupid you just don't think about it sometimes they are so caught up with the other issues that are going on in their lives that they don't take the time to take to make up to make that choice is too naughty prevention preventing pregnancy so I disclaim the fact that I am responsible for sex selection or anything like that I simply follow what Canadian society
01:02:56
has decreed and that is that a woman has a right to choose thank you thank you dr. fellows and so Stephanie we'll finish up with her five minute buzzing remarks and questions when dr. fellows ends with the woman has a right to choose it's actually a grammatically incorrect sentence choose what what does the woman have the right
01:03:37
to choose abortion is assumedly what he means well what is abortion and only when we define what abortion is can we determine whether she has a right to choose that or not the evidence is clear that the act of abortion is choosing to end the life of one's offspring the idea that the preborn are human beings is not just something that more Hasan's embryology teaches us it's actually
01:04:09
something that dr. Ellen good marker of the Planned Parenthood organization that supports promotes and does abortions conceded in 1933 as far back as then he said we of today know that man is born sexual union that he starts life as an embryo within the body of the female and that the embryo was born from the fusion of two cells the ovum and sperm this seems so simple said dr. Guttmacher of
01:04:41
Planned Parenthood this seems so simple and evident to us that it is difficult to picture a time when it was not part of common knowledge two minutes later in 1952 Planned Parenthood had brochure on birth control they answered a little a few questions no questions about birth control and one of them was is birth control and abortion and Planned Parenthood pamphlets had definitely not abortion requires an operation it kills the life of a baby after it has
01:05:13
begun end quote Planned Parenthood 1952 so when dr. cephalus says a woman has a right to choose that is what he's saying woman has a right to choose the fetal model I held in my hand him pulling it limb by limb crushing extracting disposing that is what dr. fellow says the woman has a right to choose he completely ignored the fact that doing that will have
01:05:44
emotional consequences for the woman that book I mentioned again is a pro-choice book that is concealing there are women who are traumatized by their abortions not all but certainly some then as I got to the end of my closing remarks there have been studies to back this up magical men studied ups in the British Journal of Psychiatry here's what reported and again as a reminder this was overlooked this is looking over 22 published studies and a 36 of pest and we're talking about
01:06:16
hundreds of thousands of women who were looked at in all of these studies and it says overall women with an abortion history experience in 81 percent increased risk for mental health problems it was all showed that the level of increased risk associated with abortions varies from 34% to 230 percent depending on the nature of the outcome she goes on to say separate effects were calculated based on the type of mental health outcome with the results revealing the following the increased risk for anxiety disorders 34 percent
01:06:48
for depression 37 percent for alcohol use and abuse 110 percent for marijuana use two views 220 percent and per suicide behaviors it was 100 and 55% should we be surprised based on what abortion does the ending the life of our offspring is going to have psychological consequences for us dr. fellows didn't refute that when it
01:07:21
came to the abortion breast cancer link he didn't refute that again I have all the studies here and I have the 34 that was statistically significant that include the world Journal of surgical oncology medical oncology the evidence is here he didn't refute it he can't see they're not human he concedes it's a human fetus and so the only thing we're left with his claim that someone will die from you legal abortions which has been refuted
01:07:53
by The Lancet Journal and her own experience in Canada so if we truly care about women as well as human rights then we should look for ways to help women through their difficult circumstances in such a way that we don't end the life of aircrew nor children thank you thank you everybody for your respect and your allowing the debaters to have their skates to ease their argument we're now going is the question period
01:08:32
so we're going to have lineups and I decide I'd like to be able to get to four questions and if they're brief possibly more the format for it is going to be now we're going to have questions for directed at Stephanie on on my left here right and questions for dr. fellows on the audience left so if you guys want to line up the way it will work is if you get out one person from your group at each end here just to being the head
01:09:03
of the line and what we'll do is after the question is asked and oh I'll just have you guys be very brief because if you're not greater than I have to get you off and I don't have many muscles to get you off with so what's going happen is whatever the question is for it will have two minutes to answer and then the other debater will have another 1 minute to be able to rebut the answer to the question so we will start on either side and we'll have
01:09:35
an even amount of questions on either side all right so start with your first Stephanie debate was framed see that you are asking a question of his harmful and I was wondering if you feel it over mutually exclusive something cannot be both harmful and question was as far as
01:10:08
the result of the debate that abortion is harmful to women in both of our debaters took a different side of it being Stephanie focusing on the harm to women and dr. fellows focusing on it being helpful to women and whether this is mutually exclusive seeing people in terms of the result a tie stay within the parameters of focusing on what I was asked to do which is focus on the heart is to women if we say that having an
01:10:41
abortion is helpful to a woman in crisis well that may seem helpful insofar as the immediate you know burden of the unplanned pregnancy in the crisis that she's in may seem alleviated but what kind of civil society says that ending a life once offspring is an acceptable solution to help them through difficult circumstances so I would object to the idea that ultimately this is helpful because I don't think killing our
01:11:12
children is a helpful thing to do for us emotionally as well as physically but even if someone could argue it was helpful to them then we would have a society just you know right with human rights violations for one game if you say well it helped me to hurt in so so that's why I did it isn't that black half cording laws to try to stop people I'm doing that dr. Kenneth well I need the help
01:11:45
there's no question as I said earlier that the Lord is caught in a conflict of interest with one hand she may be at some point in her life about Bishop crater on the other hand surprising yourself put yourself in a conundrum that she has to choose what is best for her under those circumstances at that time so it is helpful purple sure thank
01:12:15
you did I take a question from the other side thank you very much yes my question is for dr. fellows just with a really brief reflection observation Stephanie did address a lot of points that came up in my own mind I would say my aspiration and my question are both regarding irony I thought it was kind of ironic the fact that Stephanie 7 you are to have that I
01:12:55
suppose the fact that today there's a perception that embracing the apparently mythical or the religious I see a number of your studying and grow study philosophy and was programs Jenna did yes yeah anyway the point is by embracing the supposedly mythical Stephanie has done a much better job of embracing empirical and the facts perfect for much better lined up that
01:13:28
yours the best you do is ambiguous example of Romania my question is you have you claim to really have no freedom when the woman comes and has decided to abort so it's kind of ironic because together with the child you're boarding your own freedom to choose whether or not to do it so my question is how so your your question is that I don't
01:14:09
have three linkages yeah but you know I I really lie I decided long ago that I would provide a safe abortion to a woman if she went through a process that we provide them which is to the interview indeed to be compos mentis and in Guinea non-course and who have made a choice in
01:14:41
her home free well she no longer wished to gain experience so I have your right eye I would I believe that I ever made that role of making the decision to an Asian and I have confidence that with our screening tools that she is making that choice and I'm providing her a
01:15:10
service that you see Stephanie come I think that false dilemmas created where our options are legal abortion or portion and there is a third path and it's no abortion that a woman in crisis get help assistance through her pregnancy rather than in a in an abortion providing hospital order or clinic again if we truly hear about women we would ask the question why do
01:15:46
you want this because it's only in asking why that we begin to understand the woman's crisis case in point as a physician in Canada whose patient requested sex selective abortion and the physician sought to find out why the patient wanted it found out the patient was raised in a home which she's taught to believe her life is meaningless because she was a girl she was frequently locked in a closet and thrown out into the street when it was cool she didn't really want to kill a child she
01:16:14
just didn't want a child to suffer okay so please keep the questions brief so you hear from educators we'll come over here so the question was about reconciling the two examples one of Chile and one Romania both of which had a military dictatorship during the period that stephanie was quoting it brought up the fact that Church SP was the human rights violator that he was to demonstrate that
01:17:28
there were problems well beyond or dr. Collins is saying about access to abortion and that the real problem in Romania was how he was leading the people there are other factors in terms of where health care was and my core point was that what really matters is good medicine and good healthcare and that that's what needs to be provided because if you actually look at the numbers of the countries would have the highest mortality rate the Democratic
01:17:59
Republic of the Congo is one of them it's countries where you don't have good medical care announced by fundamental point but all we just have to look at stats and the stats refute more doctor publicist say those incomes okay okay another question from the other side all all repeated well sure okay none doctor jealous first of all I
01:18:30
wanted to say thank you so very much for coming and presenting this evening as a physician I wanted to challenge a little bit your your comments with regards to physicians needing to do what society deems is appropriate if we look through medical history of course physicians have capitulated on issues in the Nazi regime for example in South Africa during apartheid if we look through
01:18:59
medical history from Hippocrates onwards the heroes of Medicine have been those that have done what's right regardless of what society says do you think those physicians we should go along with do anything just because society says it's okay dr. fellows that's very good question and I think you know each position has to decide in their in their
01:19:29
own life what their posture is of this question I agree with you that there have games throughout civilization there have been situations where situations where they have done things according to not what they wanted to do what the government River historic I think in this situation and providing abortion no question is not not easy to provide abortions is a company conducted
01:20:01
by the idea that pregnancy is ending however I am confident in looking at the statistics and the Malaysian I talked about which is well-founded statistically well based and my experience what happened to in pre-world we wait I mean in practice long enough to know working the emergency departments I will see when we come into the university works victimized by criminal abortion and I made a conscious
01:20:35
decision at that time based on that and then the information that continues to flow from the world what happened the children Deveny the proportion is such a great thing why would he be conflicted he is conflicted why is he doing it dr. fellows is in direct violation of the nature of the
01:21:19
medical profession the CMA in its code of medical ethics says that there must be compassion and efficients non-efficient and respect for persons there's also multiple policies from the CMA about fetal alcohol spectrum disorder guidelines for the low-risk drinking in which doctors are to tell their patients don't drink don't do drugs while you're pregnant so there's a contradiction we're in one hand we're saying don't do this because it will harm your baby but hey I'll all sign up to kill your baby
01:21:50
if you want the CM a code of ethics also says to refuse to participate in her support practices that violate basic human rights and the basic human right is the right to be the right to life we were human have that right okay next question over here we're going to mobilize the night first Evan hi so just to students about not sure whether my initiative presentation they were covered her it would be what about like
01:22:22
drug induced abortions chemical abortions lot of emotional background surgical procedures statistics presented either way which person would aster wondering with damage remember not but that means the other thing was there were other statistic presented on mortality firm abortions and where they were riding their outlaw does hasn't been any studies that included alternatives in there so it didn't seem any announced it was a national tactic
01:22:52
withering third point alternatives like groaning or doctor's orders this is question thank you very much in terms of your question about the risks of chemical abortion or medical abortion I guess there are risks with that as well I chose to focus on a few things rather than many things so at this point I would just point you in the direction of resources that have information about that tend to be brains - do I have one
01:23:30
of their books with me we'll have more background on that's why focus specifically on surgical rather than chemical and I'm not walking I'm not sure where you were going with in terms of alternatives that can be absolutely have to encourage things like adoption which interestingly is often the least chosen option in people's - well many people who say in one breath I support abortion and I say by much option is it I could never do that so again let's
01:24:01
start white why would we have a hard time doing that well because by the time you adopt you fall in love with your baby and then off your painful labor for your baby and you're going to want to hold your baby and you're not going to want to face your reading the arms to someone else and that's understandable that would be hard and so because of that that's often the least favorable option whereas abortion says before I bought before I feel you before I look pregnant I'll get rid of you so it's all about keeping our distance your changes series what dr. fellows has to do to rationalize what he does I don't exhibit
01:24:33
- David our previous debating call himself a technician in a very much laid out social worker desk is the nurse says this counselor does this I just come in by the time they see me they really want it it's keep the distance if he complains social worker social worker complain the counselor can blame the nurse the nurse can be until one is feeling personally responsible I think abortion is another that it's a much safer operation in the context that those that are available
01:25:05
now are you 46 movie available I think the second point that you brought up about alternatives adoption I'm all for adoption certainly this is something that we discussed with the patients as one of the alternatives will be coming to the clinic unfortunately the infrastructure of our society is not consistent with offering that new realistic way so keeping child and being up for adoption rarely has rarely is attracted
01:25:39
to a woman who buys yourself break the our society peace thank you okay we'll move to the InDesign your question for dr. dr. fellows on you can see that women might regret having had an abortion I have two questions for you have you ever had a woman come back to you who's had an abortion and told you that she very suddenly have you ever
01:26:12
looked in the mirror into your own eyes and asked yourself if you regret performing an abortion have you ever looked at your hands and wonder both the lives lived an ended so we'll just take one of the questions dr. fellows on the chair choose which one you'd like to take certainly I've had to come back and see that they look back in retrospect
01:26:44
and say they regret proportion I think as I said earlier I think that most women as the in the cruel light of day they look back in retrospect given what has happened to their lives since the abortion and they can see the aggression have been there so and every woman as they said I think everyone who becomes pregnant doesn't want to be with almost every circumstance regrets that it's happening and they've had to have an abortion
01:27:13
right people go botanist and at that time that was the decision they had to make it was the right answer I always tell videos whatever it is anyway this is will be the right decision Stephanie whatever decision a patient wants to make is always the right decision it depends on what we're talking about so female genital cutting is it's not permissible in the medical community it's condemned is if doctors are not allowed to even refer someone
01:27:45
who would do that so there are some things that we just ate even if my patient wants to do this to their child I'm not I can't participate in it so we won't allow ourselves to participate in our patients desire to cut their child's genitals then why would we work with our patient to help them cut your child's body parts off entirely women look bad someone who look back acknowledging regret I think because we failed in
01:28:15
helping them look forward you know in that moment of crisis we didn't help explore the questions why do you want this it what was your future look like five and ten years from now in each of these scenarios so maybe the fewer will look back if in the moments of crisis we help them look forward thank you well give you have time for one question on on your side so we'll start off here with Stephanie question after if you don't mind I prefer asking the question for vote or a little bit more into it this to you not
01:28:50
to here and you mentioned you don't want to do abortions after twenty five twenty six weeks that you are happy to do for enemies with the differentiating factor be directly applied week is nubile to begin an interview days or in all technology available does that mean you think that the technology we have defines the start of the life video the humanity of the baby if we have technology that loud maybe at two weeks to live would you do abortions only after two weeks where does the life where the
01:29:20
humanity of that babies come from in your life which is defined by the technology right the divine mitogen so the actual timeline is twenty three weeks and six days interested early enough last weekend in pediatric society was dividing what they believe they will come out and beautify what they consider to be a time when they would start
01:29:50
actively and they're dropping the gestation 20 weeks I think when that happens and intact outcomes are much more likely and predictable then I think Canadian society will also dictate that abortions will not be done beyond 23 weeks right now because of being back that up comes the chance of death and/or severe
01:30:19
disability are very high that in between 3 to 6 days that's probably what determines the additional limit both in Canada your France England so that Australia so with this change I think with the beer production so it's all the way they can do impact no cost see even with dr. Elsner departments took me 3 weeks 6 days or 24 your eighth season he's
01:30:50
conceding that life actually in from the three weeks ago we're doing 36 days ago otherwise we would be available yet 23 weeks we'd say day one so there's this admission that life began that period of time that we're we're claiming the child is he age the child's act so it's this concession like being is a fertilization and an unwillingness to protect the life because of its ability to survive on its own and generally our society our standard is if you're more vulnerable we
01:31:21
have to help you or not less then you have to enter parents feed us you're not going to go to jail for not feeding us good for two and we demand our parents feed us and they don't they will go to jail for not being yes what's the difference between two-year-old and us dependency vulnerability need so the preborn child is more needy but that makes us more responsible and finally let's remember pregnancy is not a disease we're not talking about pathology so why would we do a surgery or administered Ross where there's no presence of a pathology when
01:31:52
the body is functioning right okay so um if there was no question on the side for Stephanie I would just ask if dr. fellows you're okay with one more question for you okay we'll just finish up on this side just a little bit about your motivation in point here tonight it's a little soccer question but it seems that Stephanie restless room do you or what your history at your very home side and and so I'm going to give it up like this
01:32:32
one that is the most supplies and to the light you know they have their stop killing dossier on the thing and I watch them the CCR's YouTube videos and there is a certain editorial observed shall we say so didn't gather sound like they here's the spiritual political motivation or or or societal or you know emotional admission to have in this but none for you to come here it does seem to me that very much in what you're
01:33:04
building yourself up to you like I'm not going to say this but very much open yourself up to OB is hacked and skiing you know that is a child killer I'm very curious how that like what do you think about why you're willing to please Hey abortion is a default position for a woman and I I come here because I think that it's important for us as a society
01:33:47
to not become complacent about the additional abortion I don't think I think it's it's a SS car on our society that we don't have the level of sophistication necessary to help all women avoid themselves becoming pregnant and not wanting to you about ten years ago I think the average Russian woman had the average number of abortions
01:34:18
emotional professional head will eat average number abortions our society is somewhat better than that I think Canada why there are probably a hundred thousand emotions per year we can do much better than this and as I said my last slide looking to focus on preventing these women become agreat so I'm here to acknowledge that yes I view abortions am I happy about doing abortions I'm only happy in the sense that I'm providing a safe service but I
01:34:49
agreed with a opinion that says bortion we shouldn't be doing abortion we have a fairly sophisticated society you can do a lot of things well we need to do prevention of pregnancy a lot better you need to help women who are in situations where they're being abused or violence great I'm going to address these issues so that they don't let yourself spread and again I think we need to focus on that question why you know why does dr. fellow stay within her given in Russia
01:35:27
having aggravated abortion seach we're better than that well why would we think that what's wrong with having eight abortions there's something about being poor shion's that isn't there something wrong with one abortion and whatever's wrong with me is wrong with one and therefore why would we need and participating that one thing so I guess in my last 30 seconds I'll just close with the words of a single mother I met a university student was pressured to a board it shows to carry to term her baby got sick after birth and the only way to keep her baby from waking up at night
01:35:58
was to let the baby sleep on her chest and what she said was to me it represents letting honey sleep on my chest what we do as mothers that we stop looking at ourselves individuals with needs and we begin to look at how we can serve another and therefore love another and with that comes learning to love ourselves thank you okay from here it's it's tense isn't it to talk about something that's been inches in our society and regardless of where
01:36:40
you stand on the issue is not easy right and I think our debaters handle this very well and in their own ways and we all will take something from this I think and I am very grateful to all of you for being respectful to each other and going out into the world being respectful to people who you meet on the street who have a wide variety of experiences you know this is not an easy issue but I think the people in this room are to be commended for having a
01:37:12
good discussion on this in honest way that is not you know disrespectful or loud or rude to one another and I think what we've done that is a model for our country in being able to dialogue with each other we have different opinions so thank you very much you

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