SUBTITLES:
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00:00
I'm very pleased to welcome you all here
in tonight's debate on the question of
abortion harms women I will let you send
a special welcome to students joining us
from various medical schools across the
country abortion can be a tradition so
I'd like to thank you all in advance for
your respectful participation in this
event the universal charger or
administration has asked us to remind
you that the university's policy on the
disruption of meetings applies to this
00:31
event there'll be time for questions at
the end of debate before I invite our
moderator I just want to note a few
things you should have received a
feedback form when you came in please
fill it out against debate and get it to
us as we leave the auditorium later
tonight secondly this debate is being
filmed finally please turn off all cell
phones and pagers or put them on silent
or partly to surrender we know
disruptions during this in art our
moderator for the evening is dr.
01:02
Bouchard a family decision from Calvary
please join me in welcoming him to the
stage
to introduce himself as well as well as
our speakers for evening
hello everybody thank you for coming and
thank you Stephanie and dr. close for
having this debate with us and just so
you're aware dr. fellows and Stephanie
did have coffee before 10:00 to discuss
and prepare and I think that's a good
example to all of us in kind of a spirit
01:41
and tone that we should have when we
come to something and in just like this
we should be able to go for coffee with
anybody else in this room regardless of
their position to be able to confront
each other on a human level and say you
know this is my view let me hear you out
and can be respectful humble in our own
views and be able to listen to the other
person even if you totally disagree with
them and it's just in a spirit of
respect and that's the way you should
02:11
communicate individuals so I'll just go
through a little bit of the rules of the
debate and I'll just mention before I
forget that there is a Twitter feed the
hashtag is great with an a fellow's
debate so please don't shout out loud
but show that on Twitter as much as
you'd like
so I'm just going to give you a little
bit of info about how things will go
02:42
each of our debaters will have a 20
minute opening statement and will come
to the podium to deliver their opening
statement after that will be your
cross-examination and just so you're
aware the cross-examination period the
other debater has the ability to ask
questions and they can also interrupt
opponent it's just the way that the
cross-examination kidnapped them
and during the cross-examination that's
not the time for our audience questions
03:14
that will come a little bit later and
I'll discuss that a little bit later but
the cross-examination for each of them
will be seven minutes and then each one
have time for rebuttal for ten minutes
and then they'll each have a five minute
closing statement then after that won't
have questions so I'm just going to give
our debaters a 30-second brief intro let
them do that
so Stephanie great and dr. Frasier
fellows in you give yourselves an intro
04:14
here greater Bella's i'm not
sufficiently i recall this from Western
ideology for three to five years did my
undergraduate that means graduate school
and that we practicing English edges and
back ecology abortions chairman
04:45
pregnancy options
my name is Stephanie gray I'm the
executive director of the Canadian
Centre for bioethical reporting an
original email from Jewish Columbia
Houston this year to the Greater Toronto
Area and as director of CCRI we do a lot
of Education with my colleagues to the
culture about the issue of abortion and
particularly my role is to present at
high schools churches and universities
and other institutions about abortion
and where there's an interest engage in
05:23
public debates like this thank you very
much
so my job is to enforce time limits and
I'm not very good at enforcing other
things I was trained as a physician not
as a bouncer so please don't make me use
my muscles is that your own happening so
a little further ado I am going to let I
think step here and we'll first take the
floor for our opening statement that
will be 20 minutes
06:13
two years after her abortion a 22 year
old comments I feel like I became darker
the day of my portion heavier some pure
lighted part of myself died that day
a 41 year old woman who had been
molested in her younger years note
surprisingly that at her first abortion
at 18 she quote felt the loss of girl
head girl hood even more than when I
first had sex I think I felt a loss of
06:46
innocence at 22 year old four years
after her abortion remarked I will not
forget the sound of the vacuum and how
horrible it sounded the procedure was
like someone was ripping and sucking of
my insights I felt empty afterwards
these stories are from a book that is a
collection of testimonies of women who
have had experiences with abortion and
07:17
if this is not a pro-life book this is a
pro-choice book and this book is
introduced by a psychotherapist by name
of Kathy ethylic who worked for years at
Planned Parenthood and at the time of
writing the introduction very much
embraced the issue of abortion and she
says in her introduction for thirteen
years at a Planned Parenthood clinic in
a non private psychotherapy practice I
have helped women through all stages of
this often difficult experience the
07:48
decision-making the surgery the period
after abortion I have seen a wide range
of reactions she said for relief and
fairly calm appearance and acceptance to
sadness and confusion to guilt and
suicidal depression this is a pro-choice
woman who worked for 13 years at Planned
Parenthood and then worked with women
psychotherapist in her own clinic and
she admits seeing women who were plagued
08:20
with guilt and suicidal depression she
goes on to say I become increasingly
aware of abortions complexity and the
inadequacies simple formulations I
believe she says it is for political
reasons that those of us who support a
woman's right to choose have been
reluctant to acknowledge that emotional
turmoil can both accompany and follow an
abortion this is someone who favors
abortion acknowledging that for some
women emotional turmoil accompanies
08:51
their abortions tonight's debate
challenges us to consider the following
resolve the de Bourgh ssin is harmful to
women well is it I'd like us to
societies for a moment I'd like us to
set aside the studies for a moment and
instead I'd like us to enter into a
little flawed experiment imagine that
you were a doctor and a patient comes
into your office
with signs of pregnancy so you do a
pregnancy test the test results come
back positive when he was a physician
09:21
see that positive pregnancy test do you
hang your head in your hands and think
oh boy there is something seriously
wrong with my patient or do you look at
that positive pregnancy test at least
register well her body is functioning in
a healthy manner it's functioning in a
normal way now imagine is a physician is
every being in your office here at the
emergency room working around there and
some woman presents at the emergency
room the signs of a miscarriage so you
09:52
do an exam is the test of time and
indeed you come to the conclusion that
she's having a miscarriage what's your
first reaction to her tear-stained face
be well you know it was
baby anyways and its really what's
supposed to happen when a woman's
pregnant miscarriage is the natural
normal and result of pregnancy would
that be your reaction or would it be to
acknowledge something went wrong here
now I ask you to think about this little
10:23
thought experiment because I think it
appeals to our intuitions we know that
pregnancy but our desired or not is a
normal healthy function of a woman's
body miscarriage is not it's a sign of
something gone wrong as opposed to a
sign of something going right here's why
that's important when we try and figure
out whether abortion harms women we need
to acknowledge that it is a surgical
10:55
procedure
there's not medically indicated there is
no medical necessity and yet we're doing
a medical procedure that will have
consequences as does all surgery for a
woman who has no pathology for a woman
whose body is functioning right so it
seems to me that if we ask is abortion
harmful to women the obvious answer
would be yes the right house is lots of
11:26
obvious for some if you escape either an
abortion it didn't hurt me physically it
didn't harm me emotionally so therefore
you're wrong at abortion hurts women and
for somebody who would say that I heard
me over bottom because I cannot make a
woman feel something that she does not
feel but nor can that woman make another
woman not feel something that she does
feel nor can that woman look at another
woman and say you didn't have the
physical consequence that she actually
11:57
does so does abortion harm all women no
at least from the perspective
woman some will say it did not harm me
but in a basic level abortion is most
certainly harmful to some women and
that's the case that I will be
presenting this evening what I'm going
to do is look at the physical harm of
abortion as well as the emotional harms
of abortion there's a TED talk by author
12:28
simon Sinek and Aceves it gives a TED
presentation hut on health matters or
abortion related matters but on business
and his TED talk is about a book he
wrote which is entitled start with Y and
this premise is that good organizations
and good businesses start with Y to help
their employees and all those who are
involved really understand what they're
involved with because if you understand
why it's easier to accept the what and
13:01
the how now I put that up because when I
get into bringing forth the evidence
about how abortion harms women
physically and how abortion and are some
women emotionally I'm going to start
each of those sections with why I want
to consider in towards a just basic mile
per biology in order to understand that
the evidence I will then be presenting
makes sense in light of the why so why
would or ssin harm a woman physically
13:33
such as with breast cancer a very
controversial point I acknowledge for
someone to me so let's start with why
let's look at the biology one thing
isn't disputed is that a risk factor for
breast cancer is exposure to estrogen it
is well accepted that if a woman starts
from menstrual cycles very young or they
go on very late before she goes into
menopause if she delays
14:04
having her first child if she has no
children and if she doesn't breastfeed
her children all of these things are
factors which contribute to her risk for
breast cancer
why because of estrogen exposure in each
of those situations the woman will have
more mental cycles and therefore greater
exposure to estrogen that's not a
controversial claim to make even though
the abortion breast cancer link is a
controversial thing to me so let's stay
14:34
for a moment thinking about why it could
be possible that there could be a link
here so starting with this idea that
there's a there's a link between
estrogen exposure and breast cancer now
let's consider the body of a woman who's
pregnant when a woman is pregnant her
estrogen levels skyrocket in a form of
estrogen called estradiol and this
causes the cells in our breast to
multiply at a very rapid rate at that
point in her first pregnancy the
conscious cells within a woman's breast
15:06
are type 1 and type 2 lobules these do
not become type 3 or type 4 modules
until the thirty second week of
pregnancy now here is why that is
significant type 1 and type 2 modules
are where cancers arise type 3 and type
4 modules are mature and they are
resistant to carcinogens
so that is significant significant
because the vast majority of abortions
15:37
have been long before the 30 second meet
of pregnancy when those type 1 and type
2 modules will have their after
multiplying and dividing will now become
type
in type 4 lobules but you unnaturally
cut that pregnancy off and you leave
those breast cells in a very vulnerable
state and only in the type 1 and type 2
category where they're again they are
more likely to develop to cancer so that
16:09
is significant then when we look at
studies because I realize it's one thing
to say well one would it be possible for
a woman to have an increased risk of
breast cancer if she has an abortion but
is the evidence there to actually back
that out and I certainly believe that
you can't just make a claim you want to
back it up with evidence
well what I'm holding in my hand is a
list of epidemiological studies induced
abortion and breast cancer risk all the
way up to 2013 and as far back is 1957
there are a total of 73 studies and
16:42
there are 57 which have a positive
correlation between abortion and breast
cancer and 34 of these are statistically
significant
34 bees are statistically significant
show me this link between abortion and
breast cancer not only is there that
physical risk with abortion but there's
the physical risk of preterm birth in
other words aborting your first child
could cause harm to your second let's
17:14
again start with why how could this be
possible before we look at the evidence
well when one is pregnant her cervix is
tightly closed so for that surgical
abortion to happen it has to be forced
open that can result in infection when
when surgical instruments go in it can
result in a cervical incompetence so
that when she's pregnant in subsequent
pregnancies that cervix which you can
or spoken in the first pregnancy is now
going to open sooner rather than at the
end of the pregnancy for birth it's
17:47
going to open earlier and so she could
have a miscarriage or preterm birth and
so the next child is going to have the
consequences that come from a preterm
birth such as cerebral palsy well let's
look at the studies that back this up
there were 20 studies between 1973 and
1999 in seven different countries that
point was to typically significant
increased risk of preterm births and
abortion published a new spectryx and
gynecology Journal of Epidemiology
through it was published 122 studies
18:18
within obstetrics and gynecology journal
the next journal was Journal of
Epidemiology and the New England Journal
of Medicine those are three of the 22
journals that had published studies
which show statistically significant
risk of preterm birth as a result of a
woman previously having had an abortion
then the Journal of American Physicians
and Surgeons in 2008 published a study
in which they reported between 1980 and
2005 the United States preterm birth
18:50
rate rose by 43 percent black women
compared to non black women have a
triple risk of preterm birth and four
times the risk of extreme preterm birth
in 2004 38.2% of the United States
surgical abortions were performed on
black women who comprise only 12.5
percent of the population among females
they comprise only 12.5% and yet they
19:22
had 38.2 percent of the abortions and
there's a very high and growing rate of
abortions a sort of preterm birth not
only was women in general
States but amongst black women so that
study said induced abortion is an
important risk factor for preterm birth
when you would think about the
consequences or the possible outcomes
for abortion at the farm women they're
not only physical but they're also
19:52
emotional but again I want to start with
why why would it be possible for
abortion to hurt a woman emotionally
well I mean it's important to consider
for a moment if a woman have her
appendix removed would she think she
felt empty the way to go to that cold at
the beginning after their abortions
talked about feeling empty when they
feel that innocence had been removed
from them if their appendix was removed
the wake of one woman mentioned shoot up
her innocence had been taken from her as
20:25
a result of having abortion I don't
think so
why let's start with why because
removing your appendix is removing a
human part but removing the preborn
child is removing a human being that's a
very important distinction and that
would ultimately be why abortion with
harm some good and emotionally because
of what the act of abortion does robbing
them of their preborn children now some
20:56
people say well it's not a human yet
well let's look at what every ology
tests tell us about when life begins
more goursaud have offered a number of
different embryology tacks used by
medical students across North America
and their tests before we are born as
human development is a continuous
process that begins when a new site for
the female is fertilized by a sperm from
a male
Langton embryology says the development
of a human begins at fertilization that
was well accepted
21:27
typically the beans between were to
sexually begin their lives at
fertilization and yet there are some
people who will say no life begins
before or after fertilization well
that's considerable three options we've
got before we have app and then we have
after we know life can't begin before
fertilization because sperm in a man's
body by itself will not grow into a
fetus infant Aubertine neither will an
egg and a woman's body by itself and yet
when we come together at fertilization
the genetic information that
21:57
distinguishes this young child from all
of us the literature and not the infant
stage not the fetal stage but was
determined at fertilization
she can't trace her beginning back to
the sperm of the a but she can trace her
beginning back to the one self embryo
sometimes we have a hard time imagining
how something so small could exist as
each of us our individual human beings
with our unique genetic DNA how could
that be well I think in analogy help us
understand that is an analogy to this
22:29
Polaroid picture this is a picture that
if we had it imagine we have taken again
now it was just a white card what we
would call it a picture we were to say
for white cargo to be imported into a
camera you snap before when the card
comes out do you see the picture right
away no you see brown black smudges but
everything about the image that will
develop in a few moments is capturing
the instant you take before up it just
needs time to develop before I even put
the cap the picture in you have a
potential image but the moment you take
23:01
the picture you have an image with great
potential before fertilization you have
a potential human but at fertilization
you have a human with great potential
the way the fetus the infant and the
young child are humans with great
potential I'd like us to think for a
moment do we believe in human rights if
the answer is yes the next question is
who gets Human Rights
if the answer is humans the next
question is what about back human in the
center there and some of these people is
not human and so life
23:31
her parents and if her parents are human
that logically follows she's human and
someone we see if it's not alive and my
question is is it growing if that one
cell area was growing she's alive and we
know from one's Delta to 4 to 8 to 16
and so forth by virtue of a girl she's
alive by virtue of having human parents
she's human and therefore if we believe
in human rights then the one cell embryo
has the same rights as you or me since
life begins at fertilization building
24:02
act of abortion something which happens
after fertilization is going to end that
life and the fasting the abortion
procedure proved that if we look here we
see an on week abortion the child is
sucked out we see the hands in the feet
we look here dr. fellows disillusions up
to 23 weeks in six days we see what
portion looks like here let's see these
images come to life to be able to make a
decision about the effects of abortion
24:32
on the child and the woman this is
graphic
whywould or shin heart wounded
emotionally because it does that to her
child that is why it harms women
emotionally not just because I say so
but because studies have shown that in
Ferguson at all in the British Journal
of Psychiatry a study was reported in
2008 the evidence is consistent with the
view it said that abortion may be
associated with a small increase in risk
25:36
of mental disorders then in 2011 a study
by Coleman published in the british
british journal of psychiatry was a
meta-analysis of 22 published studies 36
effects bringing together data of
900,000 women with participants of oles
200,000 that had experienced abortion
her results nearly 10% of the incidence
of all mental health problems was shown
to be directly attributable to abortion
26:06
we'll explain more in my government
Malbec dr. fellows up first 20-minute
boat in hours then this abortion helpful
endorphin rush apartment just give you a
brief description of my interpretation
of this question the next few minutes
the seeking abortion obviously basically
under on the one hand childbearing is an
26:51
event that they aspire to or have
already experienced seeking an abortion
is the last resort of a desperate woman
desperation is the circumstance at
arrival in to accomplish an abortion
documentation over the years has
confirmed that women will obtain an
abortion whether or not it's legal or
safe the lecar Institute in the United
States of America publishes on a regular
basis pregnancy outcomes over the past
27:21
in ten years they have shown worldwide
that there are both more to provide many
pregnancies per year of these 4.2
million of them and and elective
abortion half of the abortions occur in
countries where it's legal and have the
horses are illegal the difference is
that in countries where it's illegal and
the incidence of illness or death is
much higher for instance resulting in
27:51
2003 of 77 thousand deaths directly
attributed to the abortions and the
little countries and much more morbidity
related to these infection hemorrhage
and infertility and this is because the
abortions of course were carried out by
non skilled providers back street
emotions between 1980 and 1989 the
waiting governor's Romania a husband and
wife team as the GTS Keys unwittingly
28:23
showed what happens when you deny when a
choice abortions and contraception
during that 10 years were van this was
enforced by the government and women
were persecuted for seeking or having
abortions this resulted in maternal
mortality compared to the rest of your
phone you can see that the abortion rate
per hundred thousand live births in all
of the countries near or around Romania
28:57
remaining under 20 except for Russia in
Romania during that ten-year interval
was 30 times however higher
these are maternal deaths related to
criminal abortions even in our own
province of Ontario we showed what
happens when access
course legally or safe abortion occurs
having be previously denied
subsequent to Rogi way in 1969 in that
state
29:30
oh the limit of Ontario were also
allowed to see abortion having
previously denied this service or choice
Colonel Morgan ADEA mortality fell by
50% in the province within two years and
he has access to legal abortion what
I've said thus far our facts are the
facts of denying women access to
abortion worldwide countrywide and
province wide in our own backyard the
30:02
facts don't lie
abortion is a necessary requisite to
providing health care to women to deny
the service is to expose them to death
and injury abortion is not their first
choice prevention was their first choice
however this is for many different
reasons not always possible the focus on
preventing pregnancy seem to be a more
productive
Thank You Dark Elves so will now have
30:43
the period of cross-examination so each
of them will be able to take seven
minutes to ask questions of the other
person so we'll start with dr. fellows
and you have seven minutes to do the
cross-examination after my first
question stephanie is really really us
to the information that you're providing
our audience about when I was
31:15
disappointed that you started off with
issue of breast man's American College
of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Schneider of systematic cultures have
said um without any question that there
is no association breast cancer and this
is a time to vlog question which was
presented I thought it was no longer
under discussion
31:47
okay so I would just have to ask me I
know you can give us some meta analyses
of individuals who looked over the
question but when such a house where
groups as Snider's the International
Society of official status ruled by
hitting American College have all denied
but there's NES message finish this is
this is a very weak argument to end in
32:20
your watering
obviously breast cancer this is a very
concerning cancer for women anyway name
that up is as an emotional void attract
can't argue with the huge numbers
well I have right in front of me each
objection the American Cancer Society
has and a response to it about how the
studies they rely on our fraudulent I
33:12
want to give you one of your specific
objections I can give you my specific
response but I guess my question back to
you would be what's your team on hormone
replacement therapy do you think it's a
problem Janice here hormonal vision
therapy is unquestionably a visible
performance that women in menopause see
33:42
is not without risk was a very big study
was done internationally Women's Health
Initiative was showed that only a
visitor therapy this six through ten
thousand
10,000 both groups the incidence of
breast cancer at home on the base
majority was exercising this hormone
34:25
replacement purpose France asking the
question was too expensive no my correct
in understanding that you would you see
the risks to it than purse danger okay
but my point that is for 20 years it was
research pointing out to that and it was
rejected until past decade so my point
is if you say oh well that there are
authorities that are are saying that
there's no link between abortion and
breast cancer well that's what was once
being said about HRT and now it is being
considered in question about it so that
34:56
that's one of my responses yeah well the
doctor said he has shown the group a
great official unquestionably looking at
it carefully you might careless
carefully she says it wasn't
therapy until this Women's Health
Initiative once the Women's Health
Initiative occurred there was no
question that the solutions of an
ecologist working this and not making
sure that the information they were even
deter patients was correct now we need
35:32
them the information that this there are
yes because listen to regular people
miss here they are smart as abortion and
breast cancer Marianne disagrees
this was another low risk associate
proportion and president do you agree
that estrogen exposure is amiss super
high risk factor for developing breast
36:00
cancer I would say that we don't fully
understand about physiology the best
answer obviously there was an
association with a woman's production of
estrogen in breast cancer just like
there is an association progesterone and
testosterone investment some breast
cancers have been sensitive or estrogen
receptors some have progesterone
receptors some have testosterone
receptors so all of these hormones are
36:33
endogenous but whether or not so if
you're saying that abortion causes
breast cancer actually the pregnancy so
the the estrogen levels fall so one more
question relates to some of the
questions more commentary on
incompetent cervix generation
servicing association with having an
abortion
37:05
once again these questions have been
carefully looked at by various groups
and there is no evidence that who has an
abortion has any higher than sickness
public comment service and how that
service go is one where they learned
this from leasing the pregnancy because
the service isn't able to contain the
pregnancy until it's viable
there's no other incident literature for
37:36
this beginner it's sort of appealing to
people in society not saying there's no
residual abortion because we game
there's mr. grabby in part there's risk
to having a procedure or medical that it
will certainly carry risks we discussed
this this is our direction legal damage
38:07
leaders in this small portion of them
these are desert it's enough skilled
providers however can avoid East
know-nothings with a wisdom we're
visiting here right now thank you so the
next section of cross-examination will
be darker Stephanie able to ask
questions of dr. touch does it go Lois
dr. fellows I just to go through a fact
check was I correct in my Steven that
38:47
you do abortions up to 23 decency space
and are the pictures have showed an
accurate representation of what you see
in what you do I actually look at the
patient system I've seen before
appreciate our pictures if you have
pictures that you see that's what they
are that's basically what this involved
in actually visualize things like that
that's what happens right soon as
trooper must be was the same injuries
lost of even when she says what we're
39:18
seeing what to do so when you do a D and
E what's involved in the process the
woman first of all calls a clinic and
asks that tells me tells the Secretary
must is she comes to the minute and she
is screaming by nurse goes over history
as we physical hazard answer
questionnaire and she would sing social
39:51
worker
the excursion or bush she sliced
there's a first rate and then she has
her cervix prepared before that's
basically a routine she has her abortion
this Boulevard links she has an abortion
you say this size of fetus a long term
for young one would be what the size of
some of the babies you abort look like
40:28
and when they come out
do they come out in town no they
generally don't come out intact they can
open pieces pieces of what they are more
severe assaults useful more salvation
where they are so what would you say
this is not in terms of the fetal model
in my hand but what a more saline from
the woman what
41:00
is it what kind of thing is delpan Sofia
cystoscopy says I'm wondering what kind
of fetus is a human fetus okay so do you
believe in human rights what about the
human fetuses rights
well our society has decreed that the
penis does not have rights until the
team by brother till the DG's tells
41:36
mormonism Leonardo were no regulations
in our society say penis has any rights
the mother is she has the race does she
have the rights to kill her human infant
after birth so what is the difference
between the human infant making a fetus
other than age
what is more than the other double it
42:09
isn't the theist mount born because of
how old it is
uber elegance we need earmuffs lies for
two years but because we're
Ponies for nine months so wouldn't be
matter of birth either needed inherently
to the age of human
so you're saying whether someone can be
killed or not is based on whether
they're born or not correct okay and
birth is generally based on how old we
are
other than factors like premature
42:42
delivery but you have to be up nine
months before you are bred so to get to
9 months implies that we started
clogging the passage of time nine months
before correct
so therefore aren't we implying that we
believe we believe the life began nine
months ago how would we not believe that
our society and most societies agree
43:14
that life begins at birth and at 24 25
and 26 meets the penis is still in the
mother's body not born why would you
avoid then we have decided as
internationally and not we not London
Ontario Ontario internationally we have
decided that penis is is actually in the
states they go further than that but
you've decided that if he is will not be
43:47
aborted after 23 weeks six days unless
there are some major problems with these
which means they will free even though
there are no laws in most countries the
most modern companies governing blended
abortions visit least our resuscitating
these of 2014 that's why you know
portion size is the chances of an impact
survival are slim less than 20 1860 will
44:18
you board a healthy fetus at 20 weeks
yes for any reason the mother has to
want to have that emotional capacity so
regardless of the woman's motivation
whatever her reason we will abort the
fetus at 20 weeks we would not we would
not condone abortions for sex selection
okay then you will forget her what if a
44:52
woman is pregnant with a fetus decibel
female and has Down syndrome and she
actually wants a child with Down
syndrome but doesn't want a female child
are you saying you won't reward it
because her motivation is to get rid of
the female this is a state election but
that same fetus if her motivation was
Down syndrome you wouldn't worry so the
only difference is the motivation of the
45:23
mother now the fetus is that correct
so why then would you object to a
staggered abortion because our society
does not condone that when we are what I
could wear when you talk about a full
report basically where we are conducting
the business of our society doing
abortions is not something that one is
that having to be doing but they
recognize it as a need we all have
45:56
things that we do they don't necessarily
want to do you would and particularly in
a profession like that because
Russians Thank You Stephanie for that
cross-examination the next section will
be a rebuttal where each of our debaters
will be able to take 10 minutes to
revise and present any other arguments
in
so as I said a few seconds ago
providing abortion services is not
46:44
something that is easy to do we all
innately relate to being as I said women
one of the joys that women anticipate as
a moment is usually is having a baby at
some point in their lives and so we see
people we see women coming to our clinic
a child or her child were aspired
a child and their vital cells in an
untenable position and these untenable
47:17
positions I could list a million
untenable positions I've been doing this
for many years and I can give you a
million stories about women who have had
situations that have forced them into
wanting to have an abortion
and statistics don't lie the information
that I showed you is repeated year after
year new year as far as the total number
of pregnancies in the world the total
number of portions each year in the same
47:48
every year half of them attachés works
legal half of them in countries where
it's illegal you need to provide a safe
abortion or you stand by and watch women
being victimized having criminal
abortions in either dying or becoming
ill or in the case where in the Romanian
situation that I showed you a very
unwitting study that the Chesky
subjected the population of Romania to
where they denied the contraception and
abortion and they ended up having a
48:21
maternal mortality rate those 30 times
higher than in a European country
morbidity rate the Disney that didn't
even talk about and the phenomenon that
I convention which is Romanian skin
children where the children women kidney
of the abortions have their childhood
basically discarded them asleep they
came of age when they could eat them
around and that's somebody else look
after them so he really ate abortion is
not something that one is proud of but
48:51
providing a safe abortion is something
to be proud of and I will continue to do
abortions as long as the Canadian public
is wanting this procedure to be offered
to them and the latest statistics on
acceptance is the seventy five percent
of the Canadian population lean in a
woman's right to change the Canadian
Society and decides that this is not the
case and they want to criminalize
abortion then obviously this posture
49:22
will
okay thank you you didn't use all your
time - that's okay we'll move along
so step in you have ten minutes for your
rebuttal
okay let's take a lesson again from
simon Sinek and start with why why do
women have abortions doctor fellows said
it's the last resort of a desperate
woman and I don't doubt that there are
many women who find themselves in
desperate circumstances and it's the
lack of support
50:30
perhaps the fear of being kicked out of
their home the plans they had for their
career or their education getting
pregnant from sexual assault any number
of these can be very very difficult
situations for a pregnant woman to be in
but regardless of what situation she's
in is what we saw on the screen a few
moments ago going to unwritten a rape
victim is what we saw on the screen a
few moments ago make a woman who's Thor
suddenly become British is what we saw
51:03
on the screen a few moments ago going to
turn a woman's frog of a partner into a
prince I don't think so we need to be
concerned about women but we have to ask
ourselves why do they want the abortion
and once we identify why what we
realized abortion isn't actually going
to give them what they need which is
support the ability to finish school the
counseling they're going to need if
they're pregnant from sexual assault
that trauma needs to be dealt with lots
of things will trigger it but getting
51:34
rid of the preborn child is not any get
rid of the memories so if you truly care
about women wouldn't we ask why they
want this and actually address their
problem not mask it in that cavity
Natalja the psychotherapist who
introduced that pro-choice book I
mentioned said at the introduction I
remembered woman I counseled
Aaron hood she had three abortions in
two years and chose to keep using the
river method I recall feeling puzzled by
her insistence on an obviously
52:04
ineffective method a year later she came
to my private office for psychotherapy
she wanted to help she wanted help
rather in leaving her battery husband it
was he who had forbidden her to use any
other form of birth control her
situation brought home to me the
importance of knowing the full context
in which women make reproductive choices
yeah she's right we need to know the
full context but why did she find it in
abortion number one why didn't she ask
52:35
in abortion number two if this
psychotherapist really cared about the
patient
why didn't she address the crisis the
woman was in by asking why do you want
the abortion rather than just giving her
the abortion until years later she
discovers the woman is being battered so
if we truly cared about women we get to
the root of their motivations now in
terms of a few things dr. fellows said
about illegal abortions well let's look
at our country since he wants to look at
53:06
our country maternal mortality in Canada
for 1921 to 1974 as we can see it's on a
steady decline that will period up until
1969 abortion was illegal
now if dr. fellows premise is correct
that illegal abortion translates into
unsafe abortion then why is in maternal
mortality high
and violence illegal why it is maternal
mortality going down very significantly
53:37
all the while it's illegal so this is
the evidence to refute dr. fellows claim
that illegal abortion translates into
unsafe abortion and I will add of course
that's never safe for the preborn child
so legal or illegally it's always going
to be unsafe for the preborn child now
let's look at the Lancet in 2010 again
let's take dr. fellows premise that if
you legal abortion translates into quote
unquote
unsafe abortion let's look at El
54:08
Salvador 1980 all the way up to 2008 we
can see maternal mortality is on a
steady decline and what what abortion
was prohibited in El Salvador 1998 and
get in 2000 and then a decade later the
maternal mortality rate is going down so
that refused dr. fellows claim now let's
look at Chile from 1980 again to 2008
maternal mortality going down 1989 is
when abortion was illegal in Chile so
white dr. fellows claim we would have to
54:40
think that after 1989 when abortion was
illegal maternal mortality would start
going up and show like my guess what it
kept going down or less we'll get :
again we see abortion was made illegal
in 1997 and then in 2008 maternal
mortality is still on the decline but if
he's right that illegal abortion means
women die that we should see it going up
same with Nicaragua maternal mortality
continues to go down now here's what's
interesting about this let's look at
South Africa South Africa is where
abortion was made legal in 1997 it was
55:13
made illegal and in 2008 look at that
maternal mortality is going up so dr.
fellows is giving false information that
is refuted not by our only our own
experience in Canada but is refuted by
the Lancet which shows that the issue of
our turn
talent is not access to abortion it's
about good medical care so let's talk
about Romania why did so many women die
because it was led that country was led
55:45
by a dictator by the name of church SQ
who was a human rights violator they
weren't really known for being a stellar
country while Ceausescu was in charge so
dr. fellows the only kind of really
dramatic scenario he gives us is Romania
under two Cheska's regime really that is
not a country where they had good
medical care at all that is a country
where people's electricity was turned
off at certain times of the day that was
56:17
a country where people were starving
because they couldn't get food so the
issue is not asked as to abortion based
on to chest use track record access to
abortion wanted to fixed all the other
human rights violations that he was
involved with
with regards to dr. fellows questioning
the evidence on the abortion breast
cancer later as I mentioned I have all
the objections here from the American
56:57
Cancer Society which interesting what
did dr. fellows do he didn't give me a
specific objection he just gave me the
American Cancer Society they object to
it well tell me why because if you tell
me why they don't come up with a
response but he's appealing to just an
authority without actually giving
reasons and I thought he would do that
which is why I went to the authority and
I went brought every point they needed
he didn't even give me one of their
points so again someone must ask your
question I can go through that but that
is there in terms of the studies the
57:27
evidence is here in fact there are 34
statistically significant studies what's
also interesting but interesting about
these studies is that a number of them
make reference to a growing rate of
breast cancer in China where of course
there's alarming rates of abortion now
please understand I'm not saying if a
woman has an abortion that she's going
to get breast cancer
normally if she has the best cancer that
she's had an abortion I'm just saying
it's a risk factor based on evidence
that can't be overlooked and when he
57:58
cites the fact that a certain body has
said well there is no evidence again
let's ask why they make that claim let's
see if it's good reasoning but moreover
let's not overlook the fact which is why
I brought up hormone replacement therapy
that historically we have a recent
example of something where there was
evidence showing the negative
consequences and it was ignored for 20
years
until finally there was this widespread
acceptance and then suddenly a decrease
58:30
in the stats showing the number of women
getting breast cancer so if you give
something specific that it can be
refused so I provided evidence dr.
fellows hasn't
evidence to refute that and that's what
we need to consider but one final point
I want to make is when like the one day
that I have is it's interesting that dr.
fellows won't abort what we know is that
pre born human in the age category of
59:02
fetus is supposed to be age category of
infant or toddler he won't abort the
child if she's female if the mother's
reason for killing her is female but
that very same child would be killed by
dr. fellows would be ripped limb by limb
dr. fellows would use a crushing
rotating technique as described by the
medical literature in Canada for how to
do deities that he does he could use a
crushing rotating technique on the head
59:32
of that child he would do that if the
reason was the trotted down syndrome or
freezing with anything other but sex
selective abortion since white or human
rights get grounded in our gender with
feelings of our parents thank you very
much
so each of our debaters will have an
opportunity for five minute closing
remarks and then after that we will have
time for questions and the instructions
for the questions at that point so we'll
01:00:14
start with dr. Stephanie keeps
mentioning that I decision I am at arm's
length from the decisions that are made
with respect to my patients having
abortions I am a in this situation I can
tell you that I over the years have
always make sure that I arm's length
01:00:51
from the situation of presenting
receiving her counseling and the so when
a patient comes to me basically she has
made her decision based on
that she received from a nurse and a
counselor and this is true of all
clinics where they come in the missions
come in they fill out a questionnaire
and they see a nurse with or without a
counselor and maker I am not in any way
01:01:24
intimidating or influencing them as far
as the decision I simply provide a safe
access to a legal abortion and any time
the patient from the moment she makes
the phone call to the loan Commission
it's actually going to have the
procedure she can change her life and
our experience over the years is that
roughly from the time the moment
actually makes the call to the actual
abortion 20% of when we consider their
stats what they decided as far as having
01:01:55
an abortion or not and they changed
their mind and so all the ultimately the
eating said that have abortion everyone
who has an abortion I'm sure has some
regret they have regret that they had to
have an abortion some of them feel
guilty about having an abortion
some of them
about the fact that they didn't prevent
the brains genius technique one so
recidivism is about 20 percent women at
least experience a recurrent problem for
various reasons sometimes they're being
01:02:26
battered sometimes they're just stupid
you just don't think about it sometimes
they are so caught up with the other
issues that are going on in their lives
that they don't take the time to take to
make up to make that choice is too
naughty
prevention preventing pregnancy so I
disclaim the fact that I am responsible
for sex selection or anything like that
I simply follow what Canadian society
01:02:56
has decreed and that is that a woman has
a right to choose thank you thank you
dr. fellows and so Stephanie we'll
finish up with her five minute buzzing
remarks and questions
when dr. fellows ends with the woman has
a right to choose it's actually a
grammatically incorrect sentence choose
what what does the woman have the right
01:03:37
to choose abortion is assumedly what he
means well what is abortion and only
when we define what abortion is can we
determine whether she has a right to
choose that or not the evidence is clear
that the act of abortion is choosing to
end the life of one's offspring the idea
that the preborn are human beings is not
just something that more Hasan's
embryology teaches us it's actually
01:04:09
something that dr. Ellen good marker of
the Planned Parenthood organization that
supports promotes and does abortions
conceded in 1933 as far back as then he
said we of today know that man is born
sexual union that he starts life as an
embryo within the body of the female and
that the embryo was born from the fusion
of two cells the ovum and sperm this
seems so simple said dr. Guttmacher of
01:04:41
Planned Parenthood this seems so simple
and evident to us that it is difficult
to picture a time when it was not part
of common knowledge two minutes later in
1952 Planned Parenthood had brochure on
birth control they answered a little a
few questions no questions about birth
control and one of them was is birth
control and abortion and Planned
Parenthood pamphlets had definitely not
abortion requires an operation
it kills the life of a baby after it has
01:05:13
begun
end quote Planned Parenthood 1952 so
when dr. cephalus says a woman has a
right to choose that is what he's saying
woman has a right to choose the fetal
model I held in my hand him pulling it
limb by limb
crushing extracting disposing that is
what dr. fellow says the woman has a
right to choose he completely ignored
the fact that doing that will have
01:05:44
emotional consequences for the woman
that book I mentioned again is a
pro-choice book that is concealing there
are women who are traumatized by their
abortions not all but certainly some
then as I got to the end of my closing
remarks there have been studies to back
this up magical men studied ups in the
British Journal of Psychiatry
here's what reported and again as a
reminder this was overlooked this is
looking over 22 published studies and a
36 of pest and we're talking about
01:06:16
hundreds of thousands of women who were
looked at in all of these studies and it
says overall women with an abortion
history experience in 81 percent
increased risk for mental health
problems it was all showed that the
level of increased risk associated with
abortions varies from 34% to 230 percent
depending on the nature of the outcome
she goes on to say separate effects were
calculated based on the type of mental
health outcome with the results
revealing the following the increased
risk for anxiety disorders 34 percent
01:06:48
for depression 37 percent for alcohol
use and abuse 110 percent for marijuana
use two views 220 percent and per
suicide behaviors it was 100
and 55% should we be surprised
based on what abortion does the ending
the life of our offspring is going to
have psychological consequences for us
dr. fellows didn't refute that when it
01:07:21
came to the abortion breast cancer link
he didn't refute that again I have all
the studies here and I have the 34 that
was statistically significant that
include the world Journal of surgical
oncology medical oncology the evidence
is here
he didn't refute it he can't see they're
not human he concedes it's a human fetus
and so the only thing we're left with
his claim that someone will die from you
legal abortions which has been refuted
01:07:53
by The Lancet Journal and her own
experience in Canada so if we truly care
about women as well as human rights then
we should look for ways to help women
through their difficult circumstances in
such a way that we don't end the life of
aircrew nor children thank you
thank you everybody for your respect and
your allowing the debaters to have their
skates to ease their argument
we're now going is the question period
01:08:32
so we're going to have lineups and I
decide I'd like to be able to get to
four questions and if they're brief
possibly more the format for it is going
to be now we're going to have questions
for directed at Stephanie on on my left
here right and questions for dr. fellows
on the audience left so if you guys want
to line up the way it will work is if
you get out one person from your group
at each end here just to being the head
01:09:03
of the line and what we'll do is after
the question is asked and oh I'll just
have you guys be very brief
because if you're not greater than I
have to get you off and I don't have
many muscles to get you off with so
what's going happen is whatever the
question is for it will have two minutes
to answer and then the other debater
will have another 1 minute to be able to
rebut the answer to the question so we
will start on either side and we'll have
01:09:35
an even amount of questions on either
side all right so start with your first
Stephanie
debate was framed see that you are
asking a question of his harmful and I
was wondering if you feel it over
mutually exclusive something cannot be
both harmful and question was as far as
01:10:08
the result of the debate that abortion
is harmful to women in both of our
debaters took a different side of it
being Stephanie focusing on the harm to
women and dr. fellows focusing on it
being helpful to women and whether this
is mutually exclusive seeing people in
terms of the result a tie stay within
the parameters of focusing on what I was
asked to do which is focus on the heart
is to women if we say that having an
01:10:41
abortion is helpful to a woman in crisis
well that may seem helpful insofar as
the immediate you know burden of the
unplanned pregnancy in the crisis that
she's in may seem alleviated but what
kind of civil society says that ending a
life once offspring is an acceptable
solution to help them through difficult
circumstances so I would object to the
idea that ultimately this is helpful
because I don't think killing our
01:11:12
children is a helpful thing to do for us
emotionally as well as physically
but even if someone could argue it was
helpful to them then we would have a
society just you know right with human
rights violations for one game if you
say well it helped me to hurt in so so
that's why I did it isn't that black
half cording laws to try to stop people
I'm doing that
dr. Kenneth well I need the help
01:11:45
there's no question as I said earlier
that the Lord is caught in a conflict of
interest with one hand she may be at
some point in her life about Bishop
crater on the other hand surprising
yourself put yourself in a conundrum
that she has to choose what is best for
her under those circumstances at that
time so it is helpful purple sure thank
01:12:15
you did I take a question from the other
side
thank you very much yes my question is
for dr. fellows just with a really brief
reflection observation Stephanie did
address a lot of points that came up in
my own mind I would say my aspiration
and my question are both regarding irony
I thought it was kind of ironic the fact
that Stephanie 7 you are to have that I
01:12:55
suppose the fact that today there's a
perception that embracing the apparently
mythical or the religious I see a number
of your studying and grow study
philosophy and was programs Jenna did
yes yeah anyway the point is by
embracing the supposedly mythical
Stephanie has done a much better job of
embracing empirical and the facts
perfect for much better lined up that
01:13:28
yours the best you do is ambiguous
example of Romania my question is you
have you claim to really have no freedom
when the woman comes and has decided to
abort
so it's kind of ironic because together
with the child
you're boarding your own freedom to
choose whether or not to do it so my
question is how
so your your question is that I don't
01:14:09
have three linkages yeah but you know I
I really lie I decided long ago that I
would provide a safe abortion to a woman
if she went through a process that we
provide them which is to the interview
indeed to be compos mentis and in Guinea
non-course and who have made a choice in
01:14:41
her home free well she no longer wished
to gain experience so I have your right
eye I would I believe that I ever made
that role of making the decision to an
Asian and I have confidence that with
our screening tools that she is making
that choice and I'm providing her a
01:15:10
service that you see Stephanie come I
think that false dilemmas created where
our options are legal abortion or
portion and there is a third path and
it's no abortion that a woman in crisis
get help assistance through her
pregnancy rather than in a in an
abortion providing hospital order or
clinic again if we truly hear about
women we would ask the question why do
01:15:46
you want this because it's only in
asking why that we begin to understand
the woman's crisis case in point as a
physician in Canada whose patient
requested sex selective abortion and the
physician sought to find out why the
patient wanted it found out the patient
was raised in a home which she's taught
to believe her life is meaningless
because she was a girl she was
frequently locked in a closet and thrown
out into the street when it was cool she
didn't really want to kill a child she
01:16:14
just didn't want a child to suffer okay
so please keep the questions brief so
you hear from educators we'll come over
here
so the question was about reconciling
the two examples one of Chile and one
Romania both of which had a military
dictatorship during the period that
stephanie was quoting it brought up the
fact that Church SP was the human rights
violator that he was to demonstrate that
01:17:28
there were problems well beyond or dr.
Collins is saying about access to
abortion and that the real problem in
Romania was how he was leading the
people there are other factors in terms
of where health care was and my core
point was that what really matters is
good medicine and good healthcare and
that that's what needs to be provided
because if you actually look at the
numbers of the countries would have the
highest mortality rate the Democratic
01:17:59
Republic of the Congo is one of them
it's countries where you don't have good
medical care announced by fundamental
point but all we just have to look
at stats and the stats refute more
doctor publicist say those incomes
okay okay another question from the
other side all all repeated well sure
okay
none doctor jealous first of all I
01:18:30
wanted to say thank you so very much for
coming and presenting this evening as a
physician I wanted to challenge a little
bit your your comments with regards to
physicians needing to do what society
deems is appropriate if we look through
medical history of course physicians
have capitulated on issues in the Nazi
regime for example in South Africa
during apartheid if we look through
01:18:59
medical history from Hippocrates onwards
the heroes of Medicine have been those
that have done what's right regardless
of what society says do you think those
physicians we should go along with do
anything just because society says it's
okay dr. fellows that's very good
question and I think you know each
position has to decide in their in their
01:19:29
own life what their posture is of this
question I agree with you that there
have games throughout civilization there
have been situations where
situations where they have done things
according to not what they wanted to do
what the government River historic I
think in this situation and providing
abortion no question is not not easy to
provide abortions is a company conducted
01:20:01
by the idea that pregnancy is ending
however I am confident in looking at the
statistics and the Malaysian I talked
about which is well-founded
statistically well based and my
experience what happened to in pre-world
we wait I mean in practice long enough
to know working the emergency
departments I will see when we come into
the university works victimized by
criminal abortion and I made a conscious
01:20:35
decision at that time based on that and
then the information that continues to
flow from the world what happened
the children Deveny
the proportion is such a great thing why
would he be conflicted he is conflicted
why is he doing it dr. fellows is in
direct violation of the nature of the
01:21:19
medical profession the CMA in its code
of medical ethics says that there must
be compassion and efficients
non-efficient and respect for persons
there's also multiple policies from the
CMA about fetal alcohol spectrum
disorder guidelines for the low-risk
drinking in which doctors are to tell
their patients don't drink don't do
drugs while you're pregnant so there's a
contradiction we're in one hand we're
saying don't do this because it will
harm your baby but hey I'll all sign up
to kill your baby
01:21:50
if you want the CM a code of ethics also
says to refuse to participate in her
support practices that violate basic
human rights and the basic human right
is the right to be the right to life we
were human have that right okay next
question over here we're going to
mobilize the night first Evan hi so just
to
students about not sure whether my
initiative presentation they were
covered her it would be what about like
01:22:22
drug induced abortions chemical
abortions lot of emotional background
surgical procedures statistics presented
either way which person would aster
wondering with damage remember not but
that means the other thing was there
were other statistic presented on
mortality firm abortions and where they
were riding their outlaw does hasn't
been any studies that included
alternatives in there so it didn't seem
any announced it was a national tactic
01:22:52
withering third point alternatives like
groaning or doctor's orders
this is question
thank you very much in terms of your
question about the risks of chemical
abortion or medical abortion I guess
there are risks with that as well I
chose to focus on a few things
rather than many things so at this point
I would just point you in the direction
of resources that have information about
that tend to be brains - do I have one
01:23:30
of their books with me we'll have more
background on that's why focus
specifically on surgical rather than
chemical and I'm not walking I'm not
sure where you were going with in terms
of alternatives that can be absolutely
have to encourage things like adoption
which interestingly is often the least
chosen option in people's - well many
people who say in one breath I support
abortion and I say by much option is it
I could never do that so again let's
01:24:01
start white why would we have a hard
time doing that well because by the time
you adopt you fall in love with your
baby and then off your painful labor for
your baby and you're going to want to
hold your baby and you're not going to
want to face your reading the arms to
someone else and that's understandable
that would be hard and so because of
that that's often the least favorable
option whereas abortion says before I
bought before I feel you before I look
pregnant I'll get rid of you so it's all
about keeping our distance your changes
series what dr. fellows has to do to
rationalize what he does I don't exhibit
01:24:33
- David our previous debating call
himself a technician in a very much laid
out social worker desk is the nurse says
this counselor does this I just come in
by the time they see me they really want
it it's keep the distance if he
complains social worker social worker
complain the counselor can blame the
nurse the nurse can be until one is
feeling personally responsible
I think abortion is another that
it's a much safer operation in the
context that those that are available
01:25:05
now are you 46 movie available I think
the second point that you brought up
about alternatives adoption
I'm all for adoption certainly this is
something that we discussed with the
patients as one of the alternatives will
be coming to the clinic
unfortunately the infrastructure of our
society is not consistent with offering
that new realistic way
so keeping child and being up for
adoption rarely has rarely is attracted
01:25:39
to a woman who buys yourself break the
our society peace thank you okay we'll
move to the InDesign your question for
dr. dr. fellows on you can see that
women might regret having had an
abortion I have two questions for you
have you ever had a woman come back to
you who's had an abortion and told you
that she very suddenly have you ever
01:26:12
looked in the mirror into your own eyes
and asked yourself if you regret
performing an abortion have you ever
looked at your hands and wonder both the
lives lived an ended so we'll just take
one of the questions dr. fellows on the
chair choose which one you'd like to
take certainly I've had to come back and
see that they look back in retrospect
01:26:44
and say they regret
proportion I think as I said earlier I
think that most women as the in the
cruel light of day they look back in
retrospect given what has happened to
their lives since the abortion and they
can see the aggression have been there
so and every woman as they said I think
everyone who becomes pregnant doesn't
want to be with almost every
circumstance regrets that it's happening
and they've had to have an abortion
01:27:13
right people go botanist and at that
time that was the decision they had to
make it was the right answer
I always tell videos whatever it is
anyway this is will be the right
decision Stephanie whatever decision a
patient wants to make is always the
right decision it depends on what we're
talking about so female genital cutting
is it's not permissible in the medical
community it's condemned is if doctors
are not allowed to even refer someone
01:27:45
who would do that so there are some
things that we just ate even if my
patient wants to do this to their child
I'm not
I can't participate in it so we won't
allow ourselves to participate in our
patients desire to cut their child's
genitals then why would we work with our
patient to help them cut your child's
body parts off entirely women look bad
someone who look back acknowledging
regret I think because we failed in
01:28:15
helping them look forward you know in
that moment of crisis we didn't help
explore the questions why do you want
this it what was your future look like
five and ten years from now in each of
these scenarios
so maybe the fewer will look back if in
the moments of crisis we help them look
forward thank you
well give you have time for one question
on on your side so we'll start off here
with Stephanie
question after if you don't mind I
prefer asking the question for vote or a
little bit more into it this to you not
01:28:50
to here and you mentioned you don't want
to do abortions after twenty five twenty
six weeks that you are happy to do for
enemies with the differentiating factor
be directly applied week is nubile to
begin an interview days or in all
technology available does that mean you
think that the technology we have
defines the start of the life video the
humanity of the baby if we have
technology that loud maybe at two weeks
to live
would you do abortions only after two
weeks where does the life where the
01:29:20
humanity of that babies come from in
your life which is defined by the
technology right the divine mitogen so
the actual timeline is twenty three
weeks and six days interested early
enough last weekend in pediatric society
was dividing what they believe they will
come out and beautify what they consider
to be a time when they would start
01:29:50
actively
and they're dropping the gestation 20
weeks I think when that happens and
intact outcomes are much more likely and
predictable then I think Canadian
society will also dictate that abortions
will not be done beyond 23 weeks right
now because of being back that up comes
the chance of death and/or severe
01:30:19
disability are very high that in between
3 to 6 days
that's probably what determines the
additional limit both in Canada your
France England so that Australia so with
this change I think with the beer
production so it's all the way they can
do impact no cost see even with dr.
Elsner departments took me 3 weeks 6
days or 24 your eighth season he's
01:30:50
conceding that life actually in from the
three weeks ago we're doing 36 days ago
otherwise we would be available yet 23
weeks we'd say day one so there's this
admission that life began that period of
time that we're we're claiming the child
is he age the child's act so it's this
concession like being is a fertilization
and an unwillingness to protect the life
because of its ability to survive on its
own and generally our society our
standard is if you're more vulnerable we
01:31:21
have to help you or not less then you
have to enter parents feed us you're not
going to go to jail for not feeding us
good for two and we demand our parents
feed us and they don't they will go to
jail for not being yes what's the
difference between two-year-old and us
dependency vulnerability need so the
preborn child is more needy but that
makes us more
responsible and finally let's remember
pregnancy is not a disease we're not
talking about pathology so why would we
do a surgery or administered Ross where
there's no presence of a pathology when
01:31:52
the body is functioning right okay so um
if there was no question on the side for
Stephanie I would just ask if dr.
fellows you're okay with one more
question for you
okay we'll just finish up on this side
just a little bit about your motivation
in point here tonight it's a little
soccer question but it seems that
Stephanie restless room do you or what
your history at your very home side and
and so I'm going to give it up like this
01:32:32
one that is the most supplies and to the
light you know they have their stop
killing dossier on the thing and I watch
them the CCR's YouTube videos and there
is a certain editorial observed shall we
say so didn't gather sound like they
here's the spiritual political
motivation or or or societal or you know
emotional admission to have in this but
none for you to come here it does seem
to me that very much in what you're
01:33:04
building yourself up to you like I'm not
going to say this but very much open
yourself up to OB is hacked and skiing
you know that is a child killer
I'm very curious how that like what do
you think about why you're willing to
please
Hey abortion is a default position for a
woman and I I come here because I think
that it's important for us as a society
01:33:47
to not become complacent about the
additional abortion I don't think I
think it's it's a SS car on our society
that we don't have the level of
sophistication necessary to help all
women avoid themselves becoming pregnant
and not wanting to you about ten years
ago I think the average Russian woman
had the average number of abortions
01:34:18
emotional professional head will eat
average number abortions our society is
somewhat better than that I think Canada
why there are probably a hundred
thousand emotions per year we can do
much better than this and as I said my
last slide looking to focus on
preventing these women become agreat so
I'm here to acknowledge that yes I view
abortions am I happy about doing
abortions I'm only happy in the sense
that I'm providing a safe service but I
01:34:49
agreed with a opinion that says bortion
we shouldn't be doing abortion we have a
fairly sophisticated society you can do
a lot of things well we need to do
prevention of pregnancy a lot better you
need to help women who are in situations
where they're being abused or violence
great I'm going to address these issues
so that they don't let yourself spread
and again I think we need to focus on
that question why you know why does dr.
fellow stay within her given in Russia
01:35:27
having aggravated abortion seach we're
better than that well why would we think
that what's wrong with having eight
abortions there's something about being
poor shion's that isn't there something
wrong with one abortion and whatever's
wrong with me is wrong with one and
therefore why would we need and
participating that one thing so I guess
in my last 30 seconds I'll just close
with the words of a single mother I met
a university student was pressured to a
board it shows to carry to term her baby
got sick after birth and the only way to
keep her baby from waking up at night
01:35:58
was to let the baby sleep on her chest
and what she said was to me it
represents letting honey sleep on my
chest what we do as mothers that we stop
looking at ourselves individuals with
needs and we begin to look at how we can
serve another and therefore love another
and with that comes learning to love
ourselves
thank you okay
from here it's it's tense isn't it to
talk about something that's been inches
in our society and regardless of where
01:36:40
you stand on the issue is not easy right
and I think our debaters handle this
very well and in their own ways and we
all will take something from this I
think and I am very grateful to all of
you for being respectful to each other
and going out into the world being
respectful to people who you meet on the
street who have a wide variety of
experiences you know this is not an easy
issue but I think the people in this
room are to be commended for having a
01:37:12
good discussion on this in honest way
that is not you know disrespectful or
loud or rude to one another and I think
what we've done that is a model for our
country in being able to dialogue with
each other we have different opinions so
thank you very much
you
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